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Accused spy Alexander Yuk Ching Ma evidently beat the polygraph

antipolygraph.org

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Re: Accused spy Alexander Yuk Ching Ma evidently beat the polygraph

#191
post #120
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes that's how it's used. That depends on people believing polygraphs work though, which is why polygraph companies for decades have been litigating against people who question polygraphs. Sometimes just the idea that there will be a polygraph test is enough to get people to be more truthful. It's like placebo drugs - if it works somehow, should we care about whether it actually works? By that reasoning, should we al…

" That depends on people believing polygraphs work though " Are you sure that's true? In medicine, apparently placebos have an effect even if you know that it's a placebo. I imagine that even if you know that it's theoretically useless, being hooked up to a machine that can read your vitals while lying would still be nerve wracking.

To a degree of course, just 'but it might work' would be enough I guess, the same way someone needs to at least not be told something is a placebo for a double blind study to be "valid" ("methodologically sound" would a better term I think?). I did read quite a lot on the topic and much has been written about it over the years, but this was 10+ years ago for me, I don't remember enough to really make a coherent argument that addresses the details.

Re: Accused spy Alexander Yuk Ching Ma evidently beat the polygraph

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You can absolutely respond to it with your own tactics if you know about it, but it still effects you. Of which ways that it effects a person have you learned?

anecdata: i just rented a house. the listing said x. when i saw the property, the realtor said "rent is ${x+200}". I still felt like i expended my negotiations after clarifying that the rent was actually x. I knew he was fucking with me, but i needed a place to live, and i wanted to negotiate more, but it was hard to muster a negotiation after i felt like I already negotiated.

That's on you for having a scarcity mindset.

Re: Accused spy Alexander Yuk Ching Ma evidently beat the polygraph

#193
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work in counter-intel, I am well versed on what we actually use, assets are not "spies" and to get technical about it nobody is actually called a spy. But generally a "Spy" as is commonly depicted, denotes someone with governmental or diplomatic cover, an asset is an independent citizen that provides Intel usually a national of the country in which Intel is being gathered on, and generally has no cover. A case offi…

As I said - assets are routinely called "spies" in colloquial use and in the media, as is evident even in the story that this post links to, as well as countless other media references. > A case office is not an handler, a field officer is, a case office is an analyst. This is incorrect, as is evident by a basic google search. An analyst is -- surprise -- called an analyst. > There is no such thing as a paramilitary…

Can confirm. There certainly are paramil officers and in the roughly exact way you put them. Parent was apparently on some other program, or in some other compartment for whatever reason, but here's another voice who does confirm. If it didn't exist then wtf were we in on? It seems to have existed pretty great; i buy the same pairs of Keens i wore over there. I swear to the Keen shoe brand since they are basically 'worn in' from the start. Apart from that I look civil though. Not a protese in sight. Support your local decreeped person, either physically or mentally.

Re: Accused spy Alexander Yuk Ching Ma evidently beat the polygraph

#194
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think its a way to get people to admit to things. Like even knowing they don't work, it's stressful to be strapped into that chair, and even knowing the technician is probably lying when they say they're detecting deception on a particular question, it's stressful when they accuse you of lying. I bet a lot of people crack and admit to things they were hoping to hide. The trouble comes from the fact that in order fo…

>I think its a way to get people to admit to things This is the standard way human discourse happens when talking about something for which there is no evidence of efficacy. You back up and try to rationalize some other reason for it's use, even when it makes no sense. Like in this case, using it to get people to admit things, can lead to false confessions or false convictions, especially when some of the people you…

Polygraphs are not used in interrogation (where "interrogation" is "interaction done with a suspect with the goal of obtaining a confession", and "a confession" is "the suspect's own testimony, that gets written down and replayed in court.") All evidence obtained through a polygraph is inadmissible in court, so it's actively counterproductive to use a polygraph if you want a confession. (IIRC, if someone does confess under a polygraph, you need to take the polygraph away, let them calm down, and then ask them to confess again.)

Polygraphs are used for two investigative purposes:

1. To attain leads for investigation. This is basically tool-assisted https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_reading. You take a person, add some probative questions, see what makes them nervous, and then dig in further on those topics. Nothing they say can be used as proof of anything, but it can sure guide you to go have a closer look in their bag/at their ID documents (TSA); or to ask the friend they mentioned to come in as a witness; or to try to get a warrant to search their vacation home. (The statements made under polygraph aren't admissible to get you the warrant, either, so you'd need to find some other probative evidence before doing that last one. Usually this is when police would start stalking someone to obtain a DNA sample from a gum wrapper.)

2. To eliminate potential suspects (or potential witnesses!) when your pool of People of Interest is huge (e.g. when a murder occurred in public in Times Square.) A polygraph is a very weak form of exculpatory evidence: it allows you to say that some people are just less suspicious than others, without letting stereotypes guide you in that judgement. If you have 400 PoI and you need to decide who to look into first, batching them through a five-minute polygraph session is an easy heuristic for ranking them (especially when combined with other ranking factors, e.g. a criminal-record check.) It's also pretty good at weeding out "witnesses" who didn't really see anything but just like attention.

Polygraph findings can't really be "wrong" in the #1 use-case. At worst, a polygraph-obtained lead will be zero-information noise, and you'll waste time investigating it. But a polygraph used this way will never cause the wrong person to be arrested/convicted.

Polygraphs can be wrong in the #2 use-case, but only in the sense that they might cause an investigation to be derailed for months/years because someone was eliminated early when they shouldn't have been. (This is why it's important to enforce the idea that it's weakly exculpatory: i.e. polygraph findings can be used to rank the "interest" of your Persons of Interest, but not to entirely eliminate them from the PoI pool.)

Where you see polygraphs really "go wrong" is not per se a failing of the polygraph itself at all, but rather it's the common failing of all police investigation: the wrong-headed thinking that you can convict someone by playing Guess Who, i.e. that if you eliminate all but one person, then that person has to be guilty (and then doing a bunch of motivated reasoning to build weak circumstantial evidence into a case against them.) Polygraphs are often used as one of the tools of this wrong-headed pursuit, allowing a biased investigator to justify a winnowing-down of a PoI pool to just the person or set of persons they personally believe are guilty.

But you don't fix that by taking the polygraph away. You fix that by firing those people.

Re: Accused spy Alexander Yuk Ching Ma evidently beat the polygraph

#195
post #167

Can't these just be beaten with some breath training and a short training in how to answer? All they measure is your physical reaction, right?

You clench you butt cheeks when they do the calibration when you want something to register as a lie. So you tell a truth and then clench your butt cheeks for calibrating a lie. Thus they get a strong response on a truth/lie and a less strong response on a lie. The other trick is to recall a traumatic event. https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-news/how-cheat-lie-detec...

TIL: my butt is could potentially blow my cover.

Re: Accused spy Alexander Yuk Ching Ma evidently beat the polygraph

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't they search for those anyway ? It is the pretext that I don't get. You can't refuse the search. So just get it over with and leave the dog out of it.

No they actually can’t in most cases. Without probable cause or permission, an officer is not allowed to execute a search. The dog is used to provide probable cause. Also, it’s the same with letting an officer into your dwelling: Without a warrant, probable cause, or permission, they cannot legally enter.

No, while crossing the boarder you can be searched without a warrant, permission, or probable cause
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