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ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

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Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#191

Post by arka2147483647 »

benji-york wrote: post #125
arka2147483647 wrote: post #108

The thing i like best about ZSA, is that they are selling products. Just buy, configure with a nice web tool. No soldering, assembly or programming required to make it work. All other Ergodox, or Ergodox alternatives, seem like much more work to get working the way you want. Anyway, the thumb clusters were my primary annoyance with my Ergodox, so i ordered a Moonlander. I hope it works out.

For another take on thumb clusters, check out the Diverge: https://unikeyboard.io/product/diverge/

Honestly, the three-normal-buttons thumb cluster seems worse than the three-long-buttons in Moonlander. But would be nice to try it if i get the chance.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#192

Post by patal »

jdhawk wrote: post #131
tom_ wrote: post #76

I wish people would just copy the MS Natural Ergonomic 4000, but with better keyswitches. As things stand, every split keyboard with nice keyswitches has a different layout from every other, which is odd, considering how much this type of device relies on muscle memory to work. (Also, most of them miss one or more of F keys, symmetrical meta keys, standard navigation cluster layout, volume buttons - it's like they wa…

I transitioned over to the ergo k680, and have really enjoyed it. The only keyboard I've stuck with after the MS4000

Thanks for the tip! Haven't seen this yet, and collegues complain about the MS4000's loudness when I type.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#193

Post by lowbloodsugar »

I am at the point where I like to move my fingers minimally and with very low force required. I have an Apple wireless keyboard and I love the switches. Even my 2018 15" MBP is great.

I also desperately need a split keyboard. But these are dealbreakers:

* Requires me to learn a different finger pattern than the Apple keyboard (even ones with the Fn where "the control should be" are a problem for my muscle memory). I use the MBP too.

* Requires a lot of vertical movement, i.e. big deeply depressed keys

* Tall keys that require my wrists to hold my fingers in the air, or for my wrists to lay on supports which put all the weight on my wrists instead of my arms.

I have a Kenesis Freestyle for Mac, and I don't use it for these reasons, even though it relaxes my wrists rotation around the vertical axis.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#194

Post by TacticalTable »

edanm wrote: post #174

I recently bought and Ergodox-EZ, after previously getting my first mechanical keyboard (the Ultimate Hacking Keyboard, which I love). I'm not a huge fan of it. So far, it seems like it's been a lot of work relearning habits, for little gain. But oddly enough, my biggest gripe with the Ergodox isn't something I've heard people complain about - the lack of an extra column of keys on the right part. Basically, on a nor…

As somebody who really enjoys the enter key position, I've found I struggle to go back to standard layouts. Having a thumb cluster with more important keys makes far more sense than having thumbs that effectively only press spacebar or cmd/super. The keyboard wasn't designed with programmers in mind, or web browsers. Ergonomically, moving a few keys around makes sense, even at the expense of a bit of muscle memory.

For what it's worth, you'll eventually have complete muscle memory and be able to switch back and forth without even thinking. It's liberating to try out different layouts and see what ends up making sense for you over time.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#196

Post by nonesuchluck »

nextos wrote: post #92
tom_ wrote: post #76

I wish people would just copy the MS Natural Ergonomic 4000, but with better keyswitches. As things stand, every split keyboard with nice keyswitches has a different layout from every other, which is odd, considering how much this type of device relies on muscle memory to work. (Also, most of them miss one or more of F keys, symmetrical meta keys, standard navigation cluster layout, volume buttons - it's like they wa…

I love mechanical keyboards. My favorite switch is ALPS. But IMHO, the most ergonomic switches are low-travel ones. They increase my typing speed, reduce latency and make long sessions effortless. Luckily, low-travel versions of many good quality keyboard switches are being produced and developed more often now to cater the gaming market. For a simple, readily available option, I find the Apple Magic Keyboard more th…

I'm decently happy with my Matias Ergo Pro [1]. They make their own ALPS-derived switches. Only other ALPS I've ever used are verrrrrry oldddddd Apple boards. Are there any other mass-produced ALPS keebs I should be aware of, or is it mostly just hobbyists harvesting old switches for custom boards?

[1] https://matias.ca/ergopro/programmable/

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#197

Post by Fellshard »

codemac wrote: post #130
tom_ wrote: post #76

I wish people would just copy the MS Natural Ergonomic 4000, but with better keyswitches. As things stand, every split keyboard with nice keyswitches has a different layout from every other, which is odd, considering how much this type of device relies on muscle memory to work. (Also, most of them miss one or more of F keys, symmetrical meta keys, standard navigation cluster layout, volume buttons - it's like they wa…

As someone who uses an advantage kinesis & dvorak, laptops & dvorak, and other people's computers & qwerty: You get used to switching back and forth in ~2 weeks. If you spend all your day typing, definitely spend the $ and the time to learn to type on an ergonomic keyboard with good quality switches. I think the kinesis or maltron have the best research on their ergonomics & build quality. I highly recommend them.

Exactly this. If you have distinct work and personal computers and setups, use different keyboards and layouts for each. The learning curve takes a couple months for good proficiency, but the ability to manually switch modes at a moment's notice is an enormous boon that saves you from having to reconfigure everyone else's keyboards just to type, or making continual mistakes when doing so.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#199

Post by coldpie »

genpfault wrote: post #170
tom_ wrote: post #76

I wish people would just copy the MS Natural Ergonomic 4000, but with better keyswitches. As things stand, every split keyboard with nice keyswitches has a different layout from every other, which is odd, considering how much this type of device relies on muscle memory to work. (Also, most of them miss one or more of F keys, symmetrical meta keys, standard navigation cluster layout, volume buttons - it's like they wa…

> I wish people would just copy the MS Natural Ergonomic 4000, but with better keyswitches. Same, but for the Natural Keyboard Pro[1]. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_ergonomic_keyboards#...

A billion years ago (2006 or so probably), I impulse bought four or five of the Elite model all at once. Probably to save on shipping or some dumb thing, I don't remember. At the time I had gone through three of the keyboards by spilling water on them. Even a little water destroys the membranes inside, so I was like hey, I'll just stock up so I don't have to wait to order.

Then they stopped making them. I have one remaining in storage, and two in active usage. One of those (this one I'm typing on now) has a flakey 1 key. I'm really dreading the day I finally destroy it and have to find some new keyboard to replace it. Nothing I've ever seen compares to the original MS Natural Elite.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#200

Post by retzkek »

nonbirithm wrote: post #165
tom_ wrote: post #76

I wish people would just copy the MS Natural Ergonomic 4000, but with better keyswitches. As things stand, every split keyboard with nice keyswitches has a different layout from every other, which is odd, considering how much this type of device relies on muscle memory to work. (Also, most of them miss one or more of F keys, symmetrical meta keys, standard navigation cluster layout, volume buttons - it's like they wa…

I want a more ergonomic keyboard since I may be developing wrist problems, but I don't understand why none of them seem to have function keys. I use the function keys all the time and when I switch to a 40% layout I get seriously annoyed by the lack of them and end up going back to a full layout keyboard because of it. I spent twenty minutes searching for a split keyboard with function keys and found only one thread…

Most reduced ergo keyboards are heavily reliant upon layers to provide access to function keys, media keys, numpad, etc. I have several ergo keyboards, and my favorite (and one I'm currently typing on) is the Atreus [1]. In the default configuration it's one press with the thumb to access the numpad without moving the hand [2], and another keypress puts the function keys there instead (with the same layout for 1-9) [3]. This is all customizable of course.

It definitely takes some getting used to, but once you do it's such an efficient and enjoyable typing experience.

[1] https://atreus.technomancy.us/ keyboard.io also recently completed a kickstarter campaign for mass-produced Atreuses and are taking pre-orders for the next run: https://shop.keyboard.io/products/keyboardio-atreus

[2] https://atreus.technomancy.us/i/layout-fn.svg

[3] https://atreus.technomancy.us/i/layout-bonus.svg

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