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Google’s top search result is Google

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Re: Google’s top search result is Google

#191

Post by zentiggr »

boarnoah wrote: post #112
dybber wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you bootstrap such a company? The solution as I see it is to forcefully break-up Google, such that these services can have their run as independent companies (Maps, flight search, product price comparison, etc.). This has been done before with big companies (e.g. break of Bell Systems into 7 companies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakup_of_the_Bell_System )

Most of those independent companies wouldn't have a good revenue stream no? I really doubt Google Maps is sustainable simply by selling API access. It and especially the more niche google products seem to be provided as a value add to their other services (i.e search in this case).

Awww, you mean parts of the monolith would have to compete on merit with all the other companies that are having to compete on merit?

What a terrible shame...

Re: Google’s top search result is Google

#192

Post by reaperducer »

pgrote wrote: post #70
chimen wrote: post #23

Many of them save me extra clicks which is convenient. Google translate, maps and search has no competitors that even come close in terms of quality. I will get mad when those products have better alternatives but it's not the case. Build better alternatives and I'm on board. In the end, Google is a business - I would promote my own shit on the first vertical as well. One thing that pisses me off is the AMP ordeal bu…

I am the product. I understand this with google and accept it. They can extract whatever information they want in exchange for decent results when I search whether it comes from them or not. I get gmail, a phone os, a browser, an os, remote desktop and more for free from them. I pay for youtube premium. The value I get from google is worth it. Everything they provide is good enough and when I want a third party site…

I understand this with google and accept it. They can extract whatever information they want in exchange for decent results when I search whether it comes from them or not. I get gmail, a phone os, a browser, an os, remote desktop and more for free from them. I pay for youtube premium.

I don't want to cheapen the horror of spousal abuse, but your statements sound exactly like the kind of excuses that a victim of domestic violence makes.

"He only does that when he's drinking." "Google only tracks me when I'm breathing."

I don't think you even realize how you've been trained into a mindset like some kind of circus animal.

Re: Google’s top search result is Google

#193

Post by reaperducer »

john-shaffer wrote: post #147
vntok wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google does not force companies to implement ReCaptcha on their own Web properties.

Many government websites use reCAPTCHA. I do not have any choice in using it. If I were to block Google to avoid tracking, I could not function in society.

I had to use a reCAPTCHA on a government web site last week, and Google's stupid AI refused to accept that a picture of a wheelchair is not a bicycle. They both have spokes, so I must be a bot.

Note to self: Never get in a vehicle steered by Google AI.

Re: Google’s top search result is Google

#194

Post by zentiggr »

breakfastduck wrote: post #51
sidibe wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone will mention better alternatives here, after all I've been hearing about how ddg blows Google out of the water a couple times every week here for years.

Ddg is acceptable but it doesn’t blow Google out of the water at all. It’s miles ahead for me because of tracking etc, but I can’t see how anyone could think the actual search results are better

Every time in the last couple of years that DDG hasn't had a decent result, and I've used '!g' to see what else might come up, I've been very disappointed... usually a grab bag of crap sites with barely any relevance to my original search direction. We probably have very different searches.

Re: Google’s top search result is Google

#195

Post by jefftk »

ksk wrote: post #172
Mirioron wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if Google search didn't send me to Google maps when I was looking for maps then I would explicitly go to Google maps. In that case there would be no chance for any competitor to do better.

And how does one know that Google even has a maps service to go to? Google maps didn't start out great or even good (Its pretty good now). Google promotes their beta-level products over other mature products to the point the competition is starved of visitors, while Google iterates their own product. So now, after the fact, you can go "Well, there's no one else, I guess Google does the right thing in showing me Googl…

> Google maps didn't start out great or even good

That is not my memory. Google maps used AJAX to let you pan around. It was fluid, and really nice. What I had been using up until then was MapQuest, where you needed to click an arrow to move around, with long delays.

Disclosure: I work for Google

Re: Google’s top search result is Google

#196

Post by baddox »

onion2k wrote: post #182
ehsankia wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The word "Compete" here is misleading. It's rather: I wish people would build better products than Google's. According to you, Google should send users to a strictly worse app, so that it can become better over time? And unless it requires a lot of user data to become a better app, I don't see why it needs traffic from Google to become a better product. Once it is an arguably better product, then yes, Google should d…

Once it is an arguably better product, then yes, Google should definitely link to it first. Google Search should list the websites that best match the user's search terms ordered by a fair Pagerank score that doesn't emphasise Google's own properties. That's it. Google shouldn't be making subjective decisions about "site quality" (objective factors like speed, mobile optimization, malware etc are OK..). If I search f…

What about click through rate and time spent on site? Those are objective, Google probably has the data in many cases, and Google’s own products (like Maps) probably do the best on those metrics.

Re: Google’s top search result is Google

#197

Post by gundmc »

> How a search for “Linux” has changed. In 2000, Google only returned “organic” results, ads, and a category header. Now the top of the page is full of Google products and “answers.” Source: 2000 screenshot/Archive.org

Weird example to use in a screenshot since everything they show is a link to an external site.

Re: Google’s top search result is Google

#198

Post by zentiggr »

fractionalhare wrote: post #27

> A trending search in our data for “myocardial infarction” shows how Google has piled up its products at the top. It returned: - Google’s dictionary definition. - A “people also ask” box that expanded to answer related questions without leaving the search results page. - A “knowledge panel,” which is an abridged encyclopedia entry with various links. - And a “related conditions” carousel leading to various new Googl…

Maybe Google needs to take the final step in this evolution.

Let's have Google show nothing but quick answers, nothing but their own info boxes etc.

No search results, nothing external.

That way, anyone looking for any other results HAS to leave Google in order to find anything.

And Google can pander to the percentage of people who honestly don't know or care that there's a web.

Are there enough of us who would avoid Google if we knew 100% that we would never see a reference to anywhere outside of their own properties?

Re: Google’s top search result is Google

#199

Post by jacobr1 »

onion2k wrote: post #182
ehsankia wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The word "Compete" here is misleading. It's rather: I wish people would build better products than Google's. According to you, Google should send users to a strictly worse app, so that it can become better over time? And unless it requires a lot of user data to become a better app, I don't see why it needs traffic from Google to become a better product. Once it is an arguably better product, then yes, Google should d…

Once it is an arguably better product, then yes, Google should definitely link to it first. Google Search should list the websites that best match the user's search terms ordered by a fair Pagerank score that doesn't emphasise Google's own properties. That's it. Google shouldn't be making subjective decisions about "site quality" (objective factors like speed, mobile optimization, malware etc are OK..). If I search f…

I generally agree with your motivation. But spam/fraud and even semi-legit SEO gaming have basically made ignoring the "subjective" infeasible. There needs to a be some sort of "semantic" filter that returns results not just based on PageRank/TFIDF information but also some modeling of likely intent behind the query.

Re: Google’s top search result is Google

#200

Post by anoncake »

boogies wrote: post #104
chimen wrote: post #23

Many of them save me extra clicks which is convenient. Google translate, maps and search has no competitors that even come close in terms of quality. I will get mad when those products have better alternatives but it's not the case. Build better alternatives and I'm on board. In the end, Google is a business - I would promote my own shit on the first vertical as well. One thing that pisses me off is the AMP ordeal bu…

> Google translate, maps and search has no competitors that even come close in terms of quality. This is patently false, and probably a reflection of the Google bubble you live in. DeepL is pretty objectively superior to Google, as evaluated by journalists who natively speak the languages it translates in the articles linked on their website. You can find plenty of in depth reviews online, and every one I've read has…

To be fair, DeepL doesn't support all the languages Google supports.
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