Microsoft and Google collaborate to make PWAs better • Hacker News Board

Re: Microsoft and Google collaborate to make PWAs better

#191

Post by the_gipsy » Mon, Jul 13, 2020, 8:52 AM UTC

soraminazuki wrote: post #189

osrec wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Misleading how? You have one platform that already allows crazy privacy violations natively, and you have another platform that you suspect might some day allow similar levels of privacy violation, yet you champion the privacy stance of the first platform. Makes no sense to me.

> Misleading how? I pretty much explained everything after the first three words of my comment. > You have one platform that already allows crazy privacy violations natively, Give me a single example of an OS for a personal computing device where you don't have to trust what you install. > and you have another platform that you suspect might some day allow similar levels of privacy violation No, this isn't speculatio…

> pretty good isolation from the host platform

Define "pretty good". Compare the permission model of the browser against the appstores. Think about what their manual review process actually is for 99% of the submissions.

> When that isolation is rendered meaningless

PWSs don't and won't do that. That's your whole argument and it's misleading.

Re: Microsoft and Google collaborate to make PWAs better

#192

Post by soraminazuki » Mon, Jul 13, 2020, 11:15 AM UTC

nikitaga wrote: post #190

soraminazuki wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People "can" do that but that's not what either the commenter or Apple is doing. It’s not even remotely fair to pretend that HN commenters and Apple share the exact same interests. It’s not anyone besides Apple’s fault that they are doing what they’re doing in the AppStore. > So if you choose to force native UI holyness on others, at least take the responsibility for what else this brings as well. Again, what respo…

There's a difference between merely "disliking" something as a personal preference and insisting that other people should not have the things you dislike. Neither the commenter I responded to nor Apple are simply "disliking" PWAs. Apple is not allowing PWAs to bolster their monopolistic moat, and the commenter is supporting Apple's decision to not allow _other people_ to build & use PWAs on iOS, seemingly just becaus…

> This might seem like mere semantics about what "disliking" is

Yes it is. Because you have cherry-picked a single word out of my whole argument to make your point. I dedicated an entire paragraph describing the undesired consequences of going the PWA route and you refused to acknowledge it, claiming it's only the "UX" people are taking issues with.

Re: Microsoft and Google collaborate to make PWAs better

#193

Post by soraminazuki » Mon, Jul 13, 2020, 12:13 PM UTC

the_gipsy wrote: post #191

soraminazuki wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Misleading how? I pretty much explained everything after the first three words of my comment. > You have one platform that already allows crazy privacy violations natively, Give me a single example of an OS for a personal computing device where you don't have to trust what you install. > and you have another platform that you suspect might some day allow similar levels of privacy violation No, this isn't speculatio…

> pretty good isolation from the host platform Define "pretty good". Compare the permission model of the browser against the appstores. Think about what their manual review process actually is for 99% of the submissions. > When that isolation is rendered meaningless PWSs don't and won't do that. That's your whole argument and it's misleading.

> Define "pretty good".

It's a well-known fact. Actually, I'm pretty sure you're aware of this, considering this statement of yours:

> If TikTok was a PWA it couldn't have done a fraction of the tracking it was doing.

As for this:

> Compare the permission model of the browser against the appstores.

What are you even talking about? It has nothing to do with browser isolation.

> PWSs don't and won't do that. That's your whole argument and it's misleading.

That's an interesting assertion but you haven't left me any clue why you think so.

I also notice that you chose to quote a conditional sentence out of my argument, claiming that it was my "whole argument," but I'd also like to add that I did explain the hows and whys that lead it.

Re: Microsoft and Google collaborate to make PWAs better

#194

Post by the_gipsy » Mon, Jul 13, 2020, 1:34 PM UTC

soraminazuki wrote: post #193

the_gipsy wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> pretty good isolation from the host platform Define "pretty good". Compare the permission model of the browser against the appstores. Think about what their manual review process actually is for 99% of the submissions. > When that isolation is rendered meaningless PWSs don't and won't do that. That's your whole argument and it's misleading.

> Define "pretty good". It's a well-known fact. Actually, I'm pretty sure you're aware of this, considering this statement of yours: > If TikTok was a PWA it couldn't have done a fraction of the tracking it was doing. As for this: > Compare the permission model of the browser against the appstores. What are you even talking about? It has nothing to do with browser isolation. > PWSs don't and won't do that. That's you…

sorry, I misquoted the first quote, I mixed up contexts.

> the motives of PWA is to make the web browser acquire as much capabilities as a native app

This is misleading. To get to the point, your argument is that PWAs strive to be just like apps, but run in the browser instead of the OS. This is simply not true.

If you want back the web of old times, just documents and links, then you can pick up any one of such initiatives. Reality however is that PWAs are a successful model: just go to a URL and use it. It runs on a protocol, not some proprietary platform, which gives users enough control (e.g. tracking), while being useful.

Re: Microsoft and Google collaborate to make PWAs better

#195

Post by soraminazuki » Mon, Jul 13, 2020, 2:55 PM UTC

the_gipsy wrote: post #194

soraminazuki wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Define "pretty good". It's a well-known fact. Actually, I'm pretty sure you're aware of this, considering this statement of yours: > If TikTok was a PWA it couldn't have done a fraction of the tracking it was doing. As for this: > Compare the permission model of the browser against the appstores. What are you even talking about? It has nothing to do with browser isolation. > PWSs don't and won't do that. That's you…

sorry, I misquoted the first quote, I mixed up contexts. > the motives of PWA is to make the web browser acquire as much capabilities as a native app This is misleading. To get to the point, your argument is that PWAs strive to be just like apps, but run in the browser instead of the OS. This is simply not true. If you want back the web of old times, just documents and links, then you can pick up any one of such init…

> To get to the point, your argument is that PWAs strive to be just like apps, but run in the browser instead of the OS. This is simply not true.

I'm confused, because it's supposed to be PWA's major selling point. Google says as much in their documentation [1], as do many commenters in this thread.

> If you want back the web of old times, just documents and links, then you can pick up any one of such initiatives. Reality however is that PWAs are a successful model: just go to a URL and use it.

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate web apps in general. On the contrary, I happily use them on a daily basis. However, I don't like the direction PWA seems to be heading. Acquiring more "native" capabilities is one thing, though I won't be going over this again. Another important point is that it doesn't fit quite well with the "browsing" aspect of browsers. Web apps are nice, but they're hardly the only kinds of websites I visit. I visit quite a lot of random websites every day, many from HN, and I want almost none of these websites spinning up Service Workers or asking me to turn on push notifications. Web apps being more capable is nice, but I don't want them at the cost of a more spammy browsing experience.

I do want the web to be more capable, but careful design and consideration is equally as important when it comes to making the web a better place. I feel that many accusing some browsers of "holding the web back" are overlooking this point.

[1]: https://web.dev/what-are-pwas/

Re: Microsoft and Google collaborate to make PWAs better

#196

Post by nikitaga » Mon, Jul 13, 2020, 8:37 PM UTC

soraminazuki wrote: post #192

nikitaga wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a difference between merely "disliking" something as a personal preference and insisting that other people should not have the things you dislike. Neither the commenter I responded to nor Apple are simply "disliking" PWAs. Apple is not allowing PWAs to bolster their monopolistic moat, and the commenter is supporting Apple's decision to not allow _other people_ to build & use PWAs on iOS, seemingly just becaus…

> This might seem like mere semantics about what "disliking" is Yes it is. Because you have cherry-picked a single word out of my whole argument to make your point. I dedicated an entire paragraph describing the undesired consequences of going the PWA route and you refused to acknowledge it, claiming it's only the "UX" people are taking issues with.

My original comment was in response to a particular commenter who did in fact imply that UI conventions were the reason. I even asked a question to clarify if that was the case. Snarky it was, but still a question. You have your own reason to not want PWAs, that's fine. Your reason is not the reason I'm protesting.

Not including your reason in my question does not make it a false dichotomy. I never stated that UI conventions were the _only_ reason to dislike PWAs, it was simply the only reason the commenter implied.

If _you_ think promoting walled gardens and Apple's monopolistic power is less of a problem than expanding browsers' scope of functionality, I disagree, but that's not what I came here to argue about, that doesn't have anything to do with my original comment that you have an issue with.

Re: Microsoft and Google collaborate to make PWAs better

#197

Post by the_gipsy » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 9:09 AM UTC

soraminazuki wrote: post #195

the_gipsy wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sorry, I misquoted the first quote, I mixed up contexts. > the motives of PWA is to make the web browser acquire as much capabilities as a native app This is misleading. To get to the point, your argument is that PWAs strive to be just like apps, but run in the browser instead of the OS. This is simply not true. If you want back the web of old times, just documents and links, then you can pick up any one of such init…

> To get to the point, your argument is that PWAs strive to be just like apps, but run in the browser instead of the OS. This is simply not true. I'm confused, because it's supposed to be PWA's major selling point. Google says as much in their documentation [1], as do many commenters in this thread. > If you want back the web of old times, just documents and links, then you can pick up any one of such initiatives. Re…

You are right, PWAs (as far as their main driver states) want to be as capable as native apps. However, there is a huge distinction in that native apps start from a baseline of (almost) full system access, and PWAs must ask for permissions for anything but trivial capabilities. Permission interactions can be fine tuned on a case by case basis. If they are too spammy, they can be set to require a user event, a button in the address bar, etc. It has worked perfectly fine for android in the case of push notifications. I don't use it much, but for some webapps I do appreciate it a lot. For example twitter, I like to get a notification of some interactions, and some games notify me of scheduled events or when it's my turn.

Re: "holding the web back" 1. Not having push notifications on iOS _is_ sadly a dealbreaker when chosing between creating a native app and a webapp. 2. Android has had this feature for over a decade I think, and it works fine. 3. Apple gets a huge revenue cut from all native iOS apps, and has a general "platform image" it defends.

So there _is_ a huge contradiction, in that apple does obviously hold some key feature back, in the name of privacy, pushing users to use their preferred much more invasive platform.

Re: Microsoft and Google collaborate to make PWAs better

#198

Post by davrous » Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 1:25 PM UTC

Abishek_Muthian wrote: post #27

Nice, I like the way Microsoft chose to ignore the bad blood with Google regarding its apps for Windows Phone and has embraced Android. PWA collaboration seems to be a step in the right direction, especially since Edge is using chromium and Microsoft seems to be building great PWA apps[1]. Although I'm not entirely sure about Google's end game with PWA[2], I hope these kind of collaboration motivates industries to bu…

By the way, the Bing Covid PWA has been published to the Microsoft Store using Pwabuilder.com ;)