Amazon Honeycode – build web and mobile apps without writing code • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon Honeycode – build web and mobile apps without writing code

#191

Post by basch » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 2:57 AM UTC

vxNsr wrote: post #134

basch wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "Power Family" or Power Platform (PowerApps, PowerAutomate, PowerBI, Power Virtual Agents) are inarguable the most mature bundle of WYSIWYG, visual data flows, and data graphing on the market. It's not just about the app building itself, but all the ways to get data in and out of it, and what else you can do with the data once youve gathered it. Salesforce is probably the other company in the same league. Microso…

> another thread where people said Office on the web has caught up to gdocs, whereas id say theyve been ahead of it for at least 4 years. This issue is that gdocs and co are free while even for just web word you need a subscription. so the only ppl who use it are ppl willing to pay, the freeloaders only see it when their company decides to switch back to MS apps after being in googleville for a few years.

Free outlook.com (Hotmail) account includes OneDrive (live) and Word online.

Re: Amazon Honeycode – build web and mobile apps without writing code

#192

Post by rickyplouis » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 3:05 AM UTC

These types of tools seem excellent for prototyping, but always fall short in addressing the real world issues of increasing scope and maintainability. No code web development (Wordpress, and Squarespace) has largely thrived due to blogs and largely static content, but I fail to see a similar use case in mobile app development. Maybe it's a lack of imagination, but how valuable is a tool like this outside of todo lists, blogs, and other minor use cases?

Re: Amazon Honeycode – build web and mobile apps without writing code

#193

Post by bredren » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 3:38 AM UTC

cbdumas wrote: post #73

I think the thing that "coding without code" fundamentally misses is that learning to actually write Python or Java or whatever is not the hard part of being productive in a business context. The hard part of creating useful software is that you have to understand a business process and its requirements so precisely that you can write it down for the computer to do. I work with business stakeholders creating internal…

> unless you've gone through the process of writing code it's impossible to understand just how pedantic and explicit you need to be when building software

Preach! This was something I did not understand when I was only doing non technical product stuff. Now that I build I look back on my interactions with developers differently. I feel their pain so to speak.

I don’t know if builder tools like this thing perhaps create bumpers around the many pitfalls associated with turning analog into digital, but I’d presume eventually they’ll get good enough to act like the automated customer service you get from amazon support chats.

Re: Amazon Honeycode – build web and mobile apps without writing code

#194

Post by sutterbomb » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 3:39 AM UTC

dvdhsu wrote: post #68

avolcano wrote: post #3

Looks like a competitor to Retool, interesting. The focus on data permissions, mobile support, and push notifications is really interesting because none of those features are ones that Retool focuses on, I believe - those features being front and center makes me think Amazon has looked at the competition and wants to focus on what they offer that others don't, rather than just trying to be yet-another-tool in the spa…

Hi there! Founder of Retool ( https://retool.com ) here (and long-time HN reader). Agreed that Honeycode is adjacent to us. I think an interesting way of viewing the space [1] is who the product is for. There are lots of drag and drop app-builders (e.g. mendix, outsystems, bubble, msft powerapps, amazon honeycode, etc.), but they're all built for non-technical people. Their goal is to make programming more accessible…

I'm curious if you see 3rd party vendors being useful in this space. e.g. one person consultancy that can use Retool to quickly build out internal apps for other orgs that aren't able to get any internal dev resources

Re: Amazon Honeycode – build web and mobile apps without writing code

#195

Post by thunderbong » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 3:41 AM UTC

cbdumas wrote: post #73

I think the thing that "coding without code" fundamentally misses is that learning to actually write Python or Java or whatever is not the hard part of being productive in a business context. The hard part of creating useful software is that you have to understand a business process and its requirements so precisely that you can write it down for the computer to do. I work with business stakeholders creating internal…

I totally agree.

I've worked with multiple companies who've had some form of no-code products. In every case, incorporating the full gamut of business requirements entails in too much of configuration and complexity in the UI. At this point, there are only two options left for the user -

1. get trained in the software which itself is time consuming and a challenge

2. ask the vendor company to create the app, which kind of defeats the whole purpose

A few other points -

1. People to whom no-code apps are targeted tend to be in the management rather than the actual users of the system. Management is usually aware of the bigger picture or the more complete workflow.

2. However, managements requirements tend to be more around tracking, reporting and monitoring.

3. The last issue being management tends to get caught up too much in the UI rather than the underlying functionality.

Unless no-code services restrict themselves to a very specific niche with clear workflows and fewer options of customizability, the products are bound to be cumbersome, complex and having a very narrow applicability.

Re: Amazon Honeycode – build web and mobile apps without writing code

#196

Post by fragmede » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 3:44 AM UTC

LoSboccacc wrote: post #120

majormajor wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you’ll quickly come to the cases that business people love to create anyway: you can’t do X with Honeycode but you need to make it happen anyway. And then you’ll wish you’d just done the whole thing in Python. If doing the first versions in this thing meant you got to that position 6 months earlier than you would've otherwise, you shouldn't wish you'd just done it in Python from the start - your business would be m…

it's very hard for a business process to do with "good enough" code. in many situation either the output is complete and correct or it's of marginal utility. it is also geared heavily toward internal software, so it has a very narrow scope, it's not really for startup, it's not really for large enterprise with their it deps, it's not really for jim in accounting with his excel honed trough year of hard work... it wil…

The third option is a small army of temps to clean up the data - either incoming or outgoing, in order for the "good enough" code to work acceptably well. Judging from how many of these so-called second-class employees exist in the valley, I'm not convinced that it's actually possible for code to be better than "good enough" - but that doesn't stop me from trying!

Re: Amazon Honeycode – build web and mobile apps without writing code

#197

Post by nmcfarl » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 3:44 AM UTC

joebergeron wrote: post #149

tsp wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Writing a first iteration fast with no code is a smart move. You can later on create a second iteration with more traditional languages and tooling like Python.

I tend to disagree here. The thing that makes writing business software take a long time (using code, to be pedantic), isn't the fact that it's in code -- it's the fact that the requirements are often so fast and complex that there's no way to capture them in the application without taking a good chunk of time. If you want an application that doesn't actually meet your requirements, but at the very least, exists, get…

It has been my experience over and over again that having a mix of engineers and business folk, does not lead to the business folk getting the engineers to do what they want. Which is why we see so many things built in Excel and Access - the business folk know what they want, but their bosses send the engineers off is some crazy other direction.

A MVP is quite often exactly what these people need to get the bosses engineers working on the right product. And often it's not enough and the business folk end up using Excel for 20 years with a string of failed products coming out of engineering.

Re: Amazon Honeycode – build web and mobile apps without writing code

#198

Post by devonkim » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 3:45 AM UTC

cbdumas wrote: post #73

I think the thing that "coding without code" fundamentally misses is that learning to actually write Python or Java or whatever is not the hard part of being productive in a business context. The hard part of creating useful software is that you have to understand a business process and its requirements so precisely that you can write it down for the computer to do. I work with business stakeholders creating internal…

I think “no code” systems like these are mostly of value for people that want to produce some demo / prototype apps that they can then use to pitch around and then get resources for programmers to flesh out better. If said person cannot come up with such an app without involving a programmer, I’m afraid that the person is not knowledgeable enough in the target domain’s technical details to be giving guidance to a programmer.

Re: Amazon Honeycode – build web and mobile apps without writing code

#199

Post by theturtletalks » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 3:52 AM UTC

devonkim wrote: post #198

cbdumas wrote: post #73

I think the thing that "coding without code" fundamentally misses is that learning to actually write Python or Java or whatever is not the hard part of being productive in a business context. The hard part of creating useful software is that you have to understand a business process and its requirements so precisely that you can write it down for the computer to do. I work with business stakeholders creating internal…

I think “no code” systems like these are mostly of value for people that want to produce some demo / prototype apps that they can then use to pitch around and then get resources for programmers to flesh out better. If said person cannot come up with such an app without involving a programmer, I’m afraid that the person is not knowledgeable enough in the target domain’s technical details to be giving guidance to a pro…

No-code actually pushed me to learn how to code. I started building an app using Bubble.is and although it worked, it wasn't polished. Learning to build an app on Bubble gave me the confidence that I could actually learn to code. No code is a great segue for early tinkerers into Python or JS.

Re: Amazon Honeycode – build web and mobile apps without writing code

#200

Post by chii » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 4:02 AM UTC

nickff wrote: post #81

cbdumas wrote: post #73

I think the thing that "coding without code" fundamentally misses is that learning to actually write Python or Java or whatever is not the hard part of being productive in a business context. The hard part of creating useful software is that you have to understand a business process and its requirements so precisely that you can write it down for the computer to do. I work with business stakeholders creating internal…

I think you are radically underestimating the perceived barriers to entry with programming. You sound a lot like the Linux advocates who think everyone should just memorize a bunch of commands, and get used to using shell. This type of insider view is often referred to as 'the curse of knowledge'.

writing a good (english) novel is not just about learning the english language and grammar. But it is required that the novelist understands the english language well, but it's not sufficient - the novelist also needs a good grasp of more abstract concepts and have creativity as well.