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Most employees of NYT won’t be required back in physical offices until 2021

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Re: Most employees of NYT won’t be required back in physical offices until 2021

#191

Post by peruvian »

deevolution wrote: post #170
nicoburns wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately it's not a realistic option for most people. If we're talking about "shoulds", then we should have a welfare state that covers these scenarios rather than putting the burden on individuals, many of whom will not have the means to implement it even if they wanted to.

A welfare state isn't necessary if people save aggressively like in Singapore. People are actually required to save something like 35% of their income and their employers have to contribute an additional 15%. Some welfare exists but only for special circumstances like for the needy or disabled. Simply telling people to save more wouldn't cut it in America. If we end welfare like the Republicans want, I think we would…

We can't even suggest people wear masks without them saying we're taking their freedom away. Not way we're forcing people to save money.

Re: Most employees of NYT won’t be required back in physical offices until 2021

#192

Post by bluGill »

TuringNYC wrote: post #118
mattwad wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, having worked remotely for a year... the people working remote are the ones that become at a disadvantage. Because people in office may forget to include them in calls or conversations.

or...they may "forget" to include them in calls or conversations As much as I think WFH will be a huge win for workers, and the whole country (to some extent, ex SF/SV), I am skeptical it would work unless orgs are completely remote. In hybrid setups, I could see WFH workers end up getting edged out -- it has never worked any other way from what i've seen in the past.

Some problems happen when you have more than one office. It is almost always us VS them. Management needs to deal with this problem. Now I'll grant that it is a little better if it is a remote office as one person being remembered can remind you of the rest of the office. However it requires effort from management.

Which is why I have approval to travel to other countries several times a year if I want to. If teleportation existed I'd probably work in a different office every day of the week, as a tech lead it would help the team.

Re: Most employees of NYT won’t be required back in physical offices until 2021

#193

Post by ghaff »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #147
ghaff wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, companies have had this option and many have engineering offices in lower cost of living countries long before the current situation. There are a lot of reasons for companies to hire in the US. What wouldn't surprise me though if/when remote becomes a bigger chunk of certain types of jobs, is if salaries across US regions equalize more given that local labor market rates become less of a factor for setting salari…

> your decision to live in a high CoL city is no different from your decision to live on expensive oceanfront property. That's certainly possible. Of course, that would incentivize people to move out to cheaper areas, which would reduce the demand on expensive big cities, with the end result being that the price delta would become somewhat reduced.

Yeah, there are a lot of complex dynamics going on and things will play out over quite a while in a way that doesn't lend itself to absolute statements. That said, I tend to think that, even if a handful of large West Coast employers (and NYC fintech firms) tend to continue paying top-of-market rates, you're probably going to see some equalizing of salaries across the US overall (and perhaps some but less equalizing of CoL).

Re: Most employees of NYT won’t be required back in physical offices until 2021

#194

Post by supergeek133 »

marvin wrote: post #151
jedberg wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Time zones are still a thing. No matter how remote someone is, if they're more than a few times zones away it becomes problematic. More than nine timezones across the company is nearly impossible to do well. So if we're talking about a US company, if you want anyone on the west coast, hiring continental Europeans will be tough, unless one of those groups is willing to work outside normal hours. Also, taxes can be har…

Also: Culture barriers, language barriers. Even if the cheaper market speaks decent English, there will be a greater communications overhead. Also, skill compatibility. Maybe your labor pool is bigger, but so is the employer pool of everyone with world-class skills in whatever domain you're operating in.

I wish things like this mattered. I've worked for more than one company where the bulk of development happens in India.

Even though we would have a 2-3 hour window in the morning US time where meetings happen, there is lack of business context, and language/skillset barriers, the cost savings is just too much to overcome.

Re: Most employees of NYT won’t be required back in physical offices until 2021

#195

Post by duxup »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #148
duxup wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The implication being going into the office sucks and everyone has to do it to be fair. I wonder if they're aware of that subtext....

I wonder how long it will take for some fortune 500 company to get sued by their white collar office workers who catch COVID.

I think it will take extra factors like some manager who orders someone he knows has COVID into the office before we see a lawsuit that makes it very far.

Re: Most employees of NYT won’t be required back in physical offices until 2021

#196

Post by jrlocke »

momokoko wrote: post #109

Get ready for a wave of outsourcing of everything from tech to bpo like the US labor market has never seen in the coming 6 months. Once employers go through the initial pain of setting up remote work, the more than 50%(and sometimes as much as 80%) cost savings will be irresistible. If you are not in government, healthcare, or other industry that does not have legal requirements to maintain a US presence and you work…

But many preexisting remote-focused US tech companies are not heavily outsourced. They've gone "through the initial pain of setting up remote work" and are subject to the same economic forces. If these companies haven't been tempted into heavy outsourcing, why should we imagine that new companies entering into their situation will?

Re: Most employees of NYT won’t be required back in physical offices until 2021

#197

Post by robbyking »

protonimitate wrote: post #140
momokoko wrote: post #109

Get ready for a wave of outsourcing of everything from tech to bpo like the US labor market has never seen in the coming 6 months. Once employers go through the initial pain of setting up remote work, the more than 50%(and sometimes as much as 80%) cost savings will be irresistible. If you are not in government, healthcare, or other industry that does not have legal requirements to maintain a US presence and you work…

Ah yes, the outsourcing FUD train is ramping up. Remote work has been a possibility for employers for a few decades now. Nothing has drastically changed since the new wave of WFH to change that, other than its more widely discussed. > 50%(and sometimes as much as 80%) is there a source for this? I'm not convinced that the only reason "everything gets outsourced" hasn't happened yet is because employers are lazy.

I worked as what would now be considered a full stack developer during the dotcom bubble (and bust), and during that time thousands of engineering jobs were outsourced overseas. There were a couple main issues that I'd be curious to see if modern development teams would be able to overcome:

* The communication lag. When developers are working opposite hours from the rest of the team, small issues can take a day or longer to resolve. Even simple stuff like "can I cut the branch or is your feature not QA ready?"

* Rigidity. Specs are almost always incomplete (or inaccurate) in one way or another, and remote developers who aren't familiar with a company's product and goals have a difficult time distinguishing between what a product owners wants and what they ask for.

These aren't insurmountable issues, but they were the two things that really slowed things down for the teams I worked with.

Re: Most employees of NYT won’t be required back in physical offices until 2021

#198

Post by UncleOxidant »

Loughla wrote: post #5

Meanwhile, my employer has said zero remote work once the state transitions into the next phase. They want to be "fair" to everyone, including those who have positions that cannot be performed remotely. So, you have a co-morbidity? Nope. You have no childcare suddenly? Nope. It's startling how stuck in the 1980's some people are. Just absolutely astonishing.

It's amazing how so many people/entities want to pretend that somehow the pandemic is less dangerous now than it was in March when we started all of the isolating/WFH. When in fact we have a lot more cases now, high levels of new cases and more than half the states have R0 > 1.0. https://rt.live/

Re: Most employees of NYT won’t be required back in physical offices until 2021

#199

Post by TuringNYC »

bluGill wrote: post #192
TuringNYC wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

or...they may "forget" to include them in calls or conversations As much as I think WFH will be a huge win for workers, and the whole country (to some extent, ex SF/SV), I am skeptical it would work unless orgs are completely remote. In hybrid setups, I could see WFH workers end up getting edged out -- it has never worked any other way from what i've seen in the past.

Some problems happen when you have more than one office. It is almost always us VS them. Management needs to deal with this problem. Now I'll grant that it is a little better if it is a remote office as one person being remembered can remind you of the rest of the office. However it requires effort from management. Which is why I have approval to travel to other countries several times a year if I want to. If telepor…

I've seen, so many times in my career, a system being built with blood, sweat, and tears over the course of 6 to 12 painstaking months -- and then the system being "given away" to someone over the course of a couple of beers at a happy hour. (that is, management re-org / re-assignment)

When I was co-founder/CTO I never acted this way, because frankly it didnt make sense. But it happens so often in real life, I wonder if this is more about human nature.

Re: Most employees of NYT won’t be required back in physical offices until 2021

#200

Post by ajmurmann »

mjburgess wrote: post #171
Consultant32452 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have an anecdata. I work for a fortune 500 financial company. I am personally acquainted with someone who transitioned from our offshore (India) team to the US. His salary went up 3x doing the same job with the same title, and all he changed was geography.

He also changed his cost of living.

Salaries aren't based on cost of living, but on cost of labor. Those are related, but not tightly.
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