Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request • Hacker News Board

Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request

#191

Post by darawk » Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 8:52 AM UTC

gonehome wrote: post #74

darawk wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is kind of a weird problem though. It seems like the equilibrium effect of not obeying Chinese laws will be that the companies are simply excluded from the Chinese market. I'm not sure how that really helps anyone. It feels like a moral victory, but i'm not sure that it actually helps anyone. It seems like the right approach might be to comply as minimally and poorly as you can get away with, while steadily tryi…

That sounds nice in theory, but it doesn’t work that way in practice. You just end up corrupting your own principles in the end. I think the best approach would be to try to support users by making it easier for them to get access in spite of the great firewall.

> That sounds nice in theory, but it doesn’t work that way in practice. You just end up corrupting your own principles in the end.

Maybe. But if you don't do it, a Chinese company will just clone your product, and they will be substantially more beholden to the Chinese government than you.

Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request

#192

Post by ThrowawayBandit » Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 8:55 AM UTC

monocasa wrote: post #20

gonehome wrote: post #14

“The reality is Zoom operates in more than 80 countries and continues to expand, which requires compliance with local laws even as Zoom seeks to promote the open exchange of ideas.“ This kind of rationalization isn’t just a problem with Zoom, Apple does the same thing - blocking podcasts and other apps in the Chinese market (also the Taiwan flag emoji). This is wrong. What’s legal and what’s right are not the same th…

Also, as absolutely reprehensible Apple's similar actions are, Zoom canceled _a US based account_ because of a Chinese request. It's one thing to be all "we comply with local laws", and another to enforce one country's geopolitical aspirations across international borders. Like, I think companies should take a stand and both aren't acceptable, but Zoom takes new, additional steps here.

> It's one thing to be all "we comply with local laws", and another to enforce one country's geopolitical aspirations across international borders.

Not 'whataboutism', but just to generalise on this: The US do this all the time. I believe that in US law the US criminal law has universal jurisdiction, and they also use the fact that they are such a large and important market that companies will have a presence and assets in the US so they that they'll have to comply (which interestingly is exactly what China is often accused of doing.) Not to mention that they are powerful enough to 'suggest' how to behave to other countries, and we're also seeing that all the time.

So fundamentally I think we're seeing China becoming powerful enough to behave internationally the way the US do, and that is something the US are not used to, being used to being the only superpower in town.

Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request

#193

Post by pnako » Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 9:06 AM UTC

alisonatwork wrote: post #161

pnako wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't say it was exactly the same, but it's not terribly different either. Many conservatives or "alt right" types get censored in the west, and some of them have to find hosting in Russia (or on Russian social networks like VK), a country we condemn for censorship. I'm not under the delusion that Russia hosts those people out of respect for freedom of speech, of course, but I find it an interesting observation. I…

Saying "many" conservatives get censored in the west is inaccurate, considering the most popular cable news channel in America is proudly conservative, as are many local news outlets and some of the top national newspapers. In addition, the few people and organizations that have been deplatformed from social media and other hosting solutions in the west have had that fate befall them due to companies making a decisio…

In China, political dissenters are "de-platformed" (what a nice weasel word for "censored") by companies as instructed by the government; in America, they are censored by companies as instructed by angry mobs. It doesn't make as much a difference as you think.

Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request

#194

Post by bad_user » Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 9:09 AM UTC

HALtheWise wrote: post #36

monocasa wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, as absolutely reprehensible Apple's similar actions are, Zoom canceled _a US based account_ because of a Chinese request. It's one thing to be all "we comply with local laws", and another to enforce one country's geopolitical aspirations across international borders. Like, I think companies should take a stand and both aren't acceptable, but Zoom takes new, additional steps here.

Most US companies that I am familiar with apply US laws to all their users, at least to some extent. For example, I don't think that YouTube will allow you to post a blatantly copyright-infringing video, even if your account declares a country that doesn't enforce US copyright laws. Similarly, I suspect that Facebook would take down a page for a terrorist group, without needing permission from the country they are ba…

US copyright is enforceable overseas due to trade agreements. As a US citizen do you think you can infringe EU's copyright law?

It is true that US's culture has spilled into the terms of use of some of these services. I still remember the "napalm girl" being censored on Facebook for public display of nudity.

However these aren't examples of individuals being targeted by the US government.

Also just because there are instances of other companies having a negative impact on foreign users, it doesn't make this particular instance any less bad. It's a logical fallacy to imply otherwise.

Fuck Zoom. Fuck the Chinese administration.

There, now go say that in China without fearing for your life or that of your loved ones.

Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request

#195

Post by DeusExMachina » Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 9:13 AM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #24

ct520 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LOL for real. I will cry no tears for FB when they get what’s coming to them. Will be the MySpace of my kids time.(if it’s not already is)

FB has had solid revenue and net income for many years, so much that it’s one of the most valuable companies in the world. It’s not comparable to MySpace, and definitely isn’t going anywhere anytime soon.

While Facebook and MySpace are different in many ways, the average lifespan of a S&P 500 company is below 20 years.

Facebook could very well be an outlier. If it isn't, it could definitely go away in the coming years.

In any case, that shows that its revenue/income is not a predictor of anything. When a company spirals down, it does so at an accelerating rate and can quickly burn through any amount of cash.

Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request

#196

Post by summerlight » Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 9:13 AM UTC

lmz wrote: post #26

I don't see why this is such a big deal. Company with operations in China gets order from Chinese government to suspend accounts of people the Chinese government don't like. Company with operations in the US gets order not to trade with people from US embargoed countries [1]. What's the difference? [1]: e.g. https://about.gitlab.com/blog/2018/07/19/gcp-move-update/

This case can be framed more like "an american company suspended an american account of an american citizen to comply with Chinese local law." Operating in China doesn't necessarily expand its jurisdiction into the US. What Zoom should have done is blocking participants in China from the meeting created by Zhou and Wang rather than suspending a US citizen's account.

For the case of Gitlab, Google and Gitlab are both US based companies so it makes sense to comply with the US law.

Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request

#197

Post by chii » Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 9:14 AM UTC

astatine wrote: post #88

These skirmishes (Zoom now, TikTok earlier and the ongoing Huawei one) make for interesting shows, for those outside China and the US. China uses nationalism as the excuse for censorship. As long as you don't criticize China you are free to do anything you want. The US uses morality as the excuse for censorship. As long as you don't do anything that violates that particular notion of morality (the American way of lif…

The american way of life is easier. Because it's demonstrably better so far.

Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request

#198

Post by ngcc_hk » Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 9:19 AM UTC

2 problems. let us agree china law has issue, can zoom block any account traffic to china. But you note google and Apple has no such issue.

More problematic and deeper issue is how the overall game work for chinese market access and free world market access. As only China sanctioned account can communicate with china but you can use the channel for most, it has an advantage move others have. The market access to billion. As there is no equivalent they will take over a significant percentage of the market with sanction and freedom of speech as a cost. If it connects with india ...

Have to stop that kind of WHO and world trade chinese model, otherwise the free world would be in trouble.

Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request

#199

Post by boraoztunc » Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 9:20 AM UTC

Siding with governments, instead of people is wrong. Not a surprise though, Zoom can do anything for money and its position. It is my wrong though, to wait for some kind of soul from corporates.

Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request

#200

Post by chii » Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 9:21 AM UTC

jobigoud wrote: post #171

jdm2212 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zoom's strategy is to follow local laws as much as possible. For US-based users, they follow US laws. For China-based users, they follow Chinese laws. International calls probably have to be compliant with both countries' laws. You may disagree with Chinese law, and maybe if you were Zoom's CEO you'd cease offering Zoom in China, but then you'd just be ceding the Chinese market to some Chinese videoconferencing solut…

The argument that if they don't do it another one will do it is constantly used to justify unethical things. It just shows that money is more important than compromising one's values.

I'm gonna play the devils advocate, and say that money _is_ more important than morals. And it's because americans have a lot of money (collectively) that they can enjoy having high morals.

So i don't disagree that zoom is lacking in morals, but i also have to agree with what they did - for it is the only course of action that leads to them "winning" economically.