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How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

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Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#191

Post by AnimalMuppet »

testbot123 wrote: post #173
throwaway894345 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we not make comparisons between revolutions against oppressive monarchies for the right to representation and opportunistic looting and rioting? People's homes and livelihoods are literally going up in smoke and these riots aren't even over yet--can we hold off on the vague defenses of political violence?

"Political violence" is when police murder unarmed American citizens without due process. Property damage is not violence.

No, that's just violence. Political violence is when someone is murdered - by police or otherwise - for political reasons.

And, property damage can be violence. Arson, in particular, has a non-zero chance of killing someone.

And property damage - especially if it's to a home - can cause trauma to people. It's not just some innocent form of public expression.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#192

Post by throwaway894345 »

freeone3000 wrote: post #176
throwaway894345 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Voting? Anyway, there's pretty broad agreement that the riots are opportunistic violence, not connected to or motivated by a concern for justice.

Voting hasn't worked. Oakland PD still has half of its budget to brutality complaints. It's been 7 years since the movement started and 66 years since voting was allowed for Black people. Voting isn't going to change anything. "Broad agreement" by who, exactly? I keep seeing videos of cops smashing windows then blaming it on protestors, cops attacking crowds with tear gas and less-lethal rounds, and now a shooting of…

> Voting hasn't worked

What? If 10% of the people who turned out to protest actually voted in their local elections, they would have whatever they wanted. Voting has hardly been attempted, and there are voting data to prove it.

> "Broad agreement" by who, exactly?

Basically everyone who isn't an outside agitator, but if you don't already believe me I doubt I'm going to change your mind.

> I keep seeing videos of cops smashing windows then blaming it on protestors, cops attacking crowds with tear gas and less-lethal rounds, and now a shooting of a small business owner at a barbecue. It's not connected to a concern for justice because you're looking at the wrong side to blame.

I don't know what to tell you. Cops aren't using kid gloves any more for sure, but cities are descending into chaos and no one in good faith thinks its the cops that are out there doing the looting and burning.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#193

Post by [deleted] »

testbot123 wrote: post #188
throwaway894345 wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Burning and looting homes and businesses is absolutely violence, but there are plenty of assaults and murders if you're not convinced. This is an abhorrent take.

> Burning and looting homes I need evidence here. > and businesses Businesses like Target, who come into small communities, push out the mom-and-pops, then raise prices? > there are plenty of assaults and murders if you're not convinced I'm not convinced, and I need evidence that a) the shootings that you're about to link to are in fact linked to the protests (because in one case it seems like a drive-by) and b) the…

[deleted]

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#194

Post by throwaway894345 »

testbot123 wrote: post #188
throwaway894345 wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Burning and looting homes and businesses is absolutely violence, but there are plenty of assaults and murders if you're not convinced. This is an abhorrent take.

> Burning and looting homes I need evidence here. > and businesses Businesses like Target, who come into small communities, push out the mom-and-pops, then raise prices? > there are plenty of assaults and murders if you're not convinced I'm not convinced, and I need evidence that a) the shootings that you're about to link to are in fact linked to the protests (because in one case it seems like a drive-by) and b) the…

Do your own homework. It's been going off 24/7 for days on social media or on the news station of your preference. We're talking about the mom and pop shops, not the big chains, but I'm sure you know that already.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#195

Post by Mediterraneo10 »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #153
evanlivingston wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The American revolution was a violent protest.

Against a tyrannical, non-representative government , and it was a last-ditch effort . We have a democracy. People have opportunities to vote. Police policy is decided largely at the local level, so individual votes are powerful. Imagine if even 10% of protesters voted in their local elections...

Local elections can be rigged against local voters. I wish I could find the link now, but I recall reading an article recently (was it in The Atlantic?) about how one American town with a huge African-American population was unable to get a single African-American councilman elected, because back in the heyday of segregation the local whites had managed to do some gerrymandering-like trick that made most local citizens’ votes now count for nothing.

You can also see dirty tricks at local council meetings, where those in authority abuse the meeting’s rules of order to quickly shut down anyone speaking up about problems that those in authority don’t want addressed.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#196

Post by evan_ »

evan_ wrote: post #86
mmsimanga wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You suggestion make sense to me, why haven't they been implemented? Is it lack of political will or lack of money?

The police get unbelievably huge amounts of money (like serious amounts of money) so it's not that. Yesterday police in Columbus, Ohio replaced the American flag flying outside of their headquarters with a "Blue line" police flag. Just hours ago representatives of our nation's largest police force, the NYPD, posted on twitter the home address of the mayor's adult daughter. It's a lack of political will, but that's ki…

NYPD precincts and officers have all changed their twitter profile picture to a badge with a "thin blue line" band covering the area where the identifying badge number is:

https://twitter.com/jhermann/status/1267524077130039305

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#197

Post by runawaybottle »

zo1 wrote: post #183
runawaybottle wrote: post #92

What are some actual laws we can pass from this situation? I was thinking at the very least to get a citizen right where you can request to have any encounter with the police recorded. ‘Officer I request my right to have this encounter recorded’.

My crazy ideas to stop this and violence/law-breaking in general. This should cause a huge reduction in these issues we claim we're having. 1. Body cams mandatory for all police inside & outside of the station, and they stay on 100% of the time and batteries should last the whole shift. No ifs/buts/maybes. If the need arises, bathroom breaks can be edited out after the fact. 2. National ID card, in all states and man…

I have problems with #3, it incentivizes the wrong type of policing.

The goal of policing should be to make the community safe. If the goal of policing is to rack up violations, and you basically streamline it where a cop can go around and rack up tons of alleged infractions, then that’s what will happen. In fact, that’s exactly what happened when some police departments enforced quality of life infractions. Suddenly every cop had the mandate to write you up to meet their quotas, and they are able to internalize their value system organically since the word from above is zero-tolerance for even the smallest infractions.

I don’t want to live in that kind of society honestly. Take a look at this reddit thread if you want to see examples of this, and get anecdotes of how people get harassed by cops (regardless of race) for the smallest things (and this type of policing is a vector for physical escalation):

https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/gu8xlv/cops...

This one here is particular infuriating:

https://youtu.be/Q9SZlypyK-4

Your point #1 is a must, tech has to really step up and make this one happen.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#198

Post by throwaway894345 »

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #190
throwaway894345 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we not make comparisons between revolutions against oppressive monarchies for the right to representation and opportunistic looting and rioting? People's homes and livelihoods are literally going up in smoke and these riots aren't even over yet--can we hold off on the vague defenses of political violence?

The American Revolution certainly included a good share of looting. Wealthy local townspeople who were viewed as sympathetic to Britain were brutally driven out of their homes, and whatever possessions they could not take with them as they fled to Canada or the Caribbean were plundered by the revolutionaries. While the ideologues of the American Revolution were arguing for lofty Enlightenment-era ideals, on the groun…

No doubt, but I don't see what this has to do with anything. The fact that opportunistic looting took place doesn't refute the fact that the American Revolution was overwhelmingly about independence and representative government.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#199

Post by pietroglyph »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #192
freeone3000 wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Voting hasn't worked. Oakland PD still has half of its budget to brutality complaints. It's been 7 years since the movement started and 66 years since voting was allowed for Black people. Voting isn't going to change anything. "Broad agreement" by who, exactly? I keep seeing videos of cops smashing windows then blaming it on protestors, cops attacking crowds with tear gas and less-lethal rounds, and now a shooting of…

> Voting hasn't worked What? If 10% of the people who turned out to protest actually voted in their local elections, they would have whatever they wanted. Voting has hardly been attempted, and there are voting data to prove it. > "Broad agreement" by who, exactly? Basically everyone who isn't an outside agitator, but if you don't already believe me I doubt I'm going to change your mind. > I keep seeing videos of cops…

> Basically everyone who isn't an outside agitator, but if you don't already believe me I doubt I'm going to change your mind.

Trotting out a nebulous, totally unsourced claim and then implying that anyone who questions you is wrong beyond help is… not exactly a convincing tactic.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#200

Post by whatshisface »

lazyjones wrote: post #185
frogpelt wrote: post #44

I agree with almost everything Mr. Obama wrote. But... I feel the complete opposite of “hopeful” when I see these riots, when I see people so angry they will destroy their own cities. Because it accomplishes the exact opposite of they hope it will accomplish: 1. Those who side with heavy-handed police tactics feel vindicated for their prejudices. 2. The communities of those who feel unheard and left out are torn down…

> I feel the complete opposite of “hopeful” when I see these riots, when I see people so angry they will destroy their own cities. I am confident that this reality check for people who are somewhat blindly supporting their ideologies will benefit everyone. Beginning with the wealthier people who supported these protests and are now seeing their gated communities burn and their "progressive" newspapers destroyed.

Are the gated communities burning or the high-density poor city blocks?
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