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Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

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Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#191

Post by T-hawk »

vkou wrote: post #137
zbrozek wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was obvious while I was a student that the ratio of administrators to faculty was ridiculous. And the growth rate ratio between them was 3:1. At no point was it clear to me what real value they were adding. I was the captain of a more capital and real-estate intensive than average student group, and it was absolutely infuriating to try to figure out how to get anything done. There was always some new bureaucrat co…

> Everyone feels that their problems deserve more headcount. Take two teams, one with 6 people that produce a lot of value, and one with 50 people that produce... Let's say the same amount of value. When the manager of the team with 6 people, in the same org, starts getting paid three times more than the manager of the team of 50, you'll stop seeing managers fight for headcount. All of the economic incentives in the…

> Good engineers are pushed into becoming managers, because that's the only way they can get rewarded.

And there's a second-order casualty of that: the people who are assigned to report to such an engineer-become-manager.

This happened to me on my previous job. The most brilliant programmer I've ever worked with got promoted to a manager, for the dumb reason that the company's programmer salary bands didn't go high enough for what he was (way more than) worth. As a manager he had to have headcount reporting to him, and I got assigned to be one of that headcount. He had no interest in people-managing. I didn't begrudge him for that at all - but it was clear my own career would go nowhere reporting to someone with no interest in managing, so I left that job shortly after.

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#192

Post by hagy »

PeterisP wrote: post #180
vmchale wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If anything the pandemic seems to have made people less patient with self-justifying administrators. I don't think this can continue. Professors/teachers add value for students, you can't cut them indefinitely when they are now so much of the reason that the online college experience has value.

The switch to online learning IMHO would lead to a 'winner-takes-all' market for professors/teachers. To simplify, if you're attending class at a top university you get a top math professor, if you're attending a school ranked at #1000, then you have to settle with whomever they can get. However, in an online setting, why wouldn't all the students just use the top online material? And in that situation, the top profe…

To a large extent, anyone can already get access to the top university lectures in the world for a range of subjects already. Since top universities, chiefly MIT, have been recording and publicly sharing full-course classroom lectures for years. I think this shows that students care about more than just the lectures.

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#193

Post by chrisseaton »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #69
albntomat0 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your overall point, but one of the issues with online learning is the credential received isn't the same value as an in-person one. There are an increasing number of exceptions like the Georgia Tech online masters, but I'm not aware of a high-end online bachelors degree.

In UK the Open University is highly valued, and only (?) offers remote learning (and has for decades). Indeed it's recommended to put BA(Open), or whatever, by the uni as it's considered by some more valuable than an attendance based degree. This mirrors the writing of Oxon., for example, for an Oxford degree. It's surely about perception of employers.

> Indeed it's recommended to put BA(Open), or whatever, by the uni as it's considered by some more valuable than an attendance based degree.

All unis do this BA (Cantab), BA (Bristoliensis), BA (Exon), etc. It’s nothing special for OU.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universities_in_the_United_K...

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#194

Post by graeme »

usaar333 wrote: post #187
LanceH wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then they can file bankruptcy and students can stand in line as creditors. "I already spent it" isn't a legal defense for taking money and not delivering services.

Except it really is when it comes to Force Majeur.

Really? If you have a source, I’m interested.

I figured the event itself was the consequential part, not whether the money was spent.

Also not sure the OP Meant it literally. University expenses are mostly fixed.

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#195

Post by chrisseaton »

7thaccount wrote: post #84
jawns wrote: post #28

The reason there is such a large premium for on-campus education versus online universities is because on-campus education is an experience as much as it is a service. If you're only interested in mastering the content, then online learning may be the place for you. That's why we see so many people pursuing online courses for their master's degrees and when they return to school later in life. They just want the cont…

I think the "experience" is vastly overrated with the one exception that it helped me meet my wife.

I think a huge number of people meet their future spouse at uni.

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#196

Post by barry-cotter »

blawson wrote: post #167
bambataa wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a non-American I've never really understood this "oh, in state is still cheap" argument. Does every state have a top university? What if your state doesn't have a good university for what you want to study? UNC sounds nice for people lucky enough to have been born in NC but why should out of state people pay more? Or do people move to a state specifically for the universities?

States pay for higher education systems as a part of their budget. From https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/education/article239... , $800 million from North Carolina tax payers to universities it sounds like. Meanwhile, Germany is re-introducing fees for non EU residents: https://www.studying-in-germany.org/germany-will-reintroduce... .

> Meanwhile, Germany is re-introducing fees for non EU residents:

€1500 per semester. Nothing compared to zzz USA or even UK fees.

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#197

Post by barry-cotter »

CincinnatiMan wrote: post #162
jboog wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is everyone acting like every school charges Ivy League prices? Most state schools are affordable. Mine is a top school and charges $9k a year in tuition for in state. You can get all of the social, in person experience at almost any state school. You might not get a job at Google or Mckinsey but you also won't take on 6 figure debt. The problem is everyone wants to go to the private/out of state schools with sky…

Looks like total cost of attendance is much higher than $9k/year: https://admissions.unc.edu/afford/cost-of-attendance/ Even if you only paid tuition, you'd still have housing expenses, since most students don't live at home for a school like UNC. So overall I think it's disingenuous to say it's only $9k/year.

Accommodation, transport, food etc. all need to be paid whether you’re attending school or not. If you’re trying to include all real costs foregone earnings are by far the biggest.

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#198

Post by mennis16 »

alistairSH wrote: post #59
rb808 wrote: post #44

Colleges should just open up. Young students are low risk that they're unlikely to be very sick if/when they contract disease. There will be some old or unhealthy staff members that can be protected. California and NY have stronger lock down rules, but people should just transfer to Texas, Florida places that are more open.

While true that younger people are less at risk than older people, that risk is non-zero and significant. You also ignore that students don't isolate themselves within the walls of the college. They are a part of that community, using dining and retail facilities, traveling home, visiting nearby cities, etc. That puts their parents and families at risk, locals at risk, etc.

Not to mention the majority of professors would be considered at least moderate risk. Maybe I just had a particularly good experience but I got to interact with a number of profs quite a bit during undergrad. Paying for in-person with only a bunch of TAs just wouldn't be worth it IMO, plus things like campus events would also have to be limited. It would take most of the benefits of the college experience out of the picture. I think gap year is the way to go for anyone that can make it work, regardless of whether the schools try to do online only or make accomodations for in-person.

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#199

Post by WalterBright »

zbrozek wrote: post #74
ben7799 wrote: post #10

This is just the straw that is popping the college bubble. My Alma mater has 15 administrators who make 2-3x more than the President did when I graduated. The President makes $5 million+. The VP/Dean of HR makes > $1 million. Administrators took a 5% pay cut. Lots of professors are furloughed or laid off. The school did all kinds of shenanigans to hang onto as much tuition/board/food money as they could. Students are…

It was obvious while I was a student that the ratio of administrators to faculty was ridiculous. And the growth rate ratio between them was 3:1. At no point was it clear to me what real value they were adding. I was the captain of a more capital and real-estate intensive than average student group, and it was absolutely infuriating to try to figure out how to get anything done. There was always some new bureaucrat co…

That's why companies grow to a certain point, and then start failing.

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#200

Post by manquer »

tlibert wrote: post #179

Faculty member at a top-tier CS school. For most of the faculty where I am, an hourly consulting fee in the range of $500-1000 is reasonable. If you take the low-end of that range ($500) x 3 hours of class time per week ($1500) x 12 weeks of class you get $18,000 worth of expert time. Multiply that by three classes and you get $54k of value each semester, so even with non-trivial tuition it is still a pretty good dea…

That kind of consulting fees for 1:20 shared time with so many other students on topics they don't control flow of ??? (i.e. I don't get to choose the specifics on topic you are "consulting" on or dictate what and how you teach me).

I wouldn't be able charge $ 10,000 - $20,000 for a 1:1 consulting session ! There are very very few people in the world who can command that kind of premium

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