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University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

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Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#191

Post by AaronFriel »

ikeyany wrote: post #174
AaronFriel wrote: post #137

Such a move would mean I would never have been admitted to university, and I don't think I'm alone. I graduated third from the bottom of my class from High School and had enormous difficulties with a school system that was adversarial to me throughout my childhood. In my public elementary school my principal deceived state officials to try to put me into special ed. She was admonished after it was revealed she hid my…

> In my public elementary school my principal deceived state officials to try to put me into special ed. She was admonished after it was revealed she hid my Iowa standardized test scores from state officials. I think a student talking about that during the application process would actually be considered for admission.

I would say it's a very naive assumption that admissions will look that deeply into a story of a "low-performing" student saying they have been wronged with no evidence otherwise.

Especially if I did not have a standardized test score, a public school file documenting it, or anything to back up that claim other than recollections of my own and my father's.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#192

Post by an_opabinia »

hpoe wrote: post #3

I know some people protest measures that are considered more "objective" over measures that are more "holistic", whether this is in school admittance, performance evaluation, promotion consideration, interviewing, determining welfare benefits, choosing who makes the rules and governs. However it has been my experience that whenever an explicit test or hierarchy is removed another shadow one builds up that is more sub…

> Sure the SAT/ACT does favor students whose parents had enough money to afford private tutors

Not really, most evidence points to private tutors as we know them having a very small impact on test scores. On a large study low-income students controlled I recall something like +30 points and something like a non-statistically-significant difference for high income students. The income difference was still its usual +100 points.

The thing you and pretty much everyone else conflates with private tutors as Americans conceive them is cram schools, which are a different beast entirely. If you just punch private tutoring into Google Scholar you'll see they're really talking about cram schools whenever a large effect is observed.

Should the University of California system reward parents who coerce their kids into a childhood-robbing experience they will pay dearly for later?

Who's going to investigate, "Do kids who endured cram school emerge healthy?"

Does that sound like a good policy, cram school?

We don't want our regular education system to resemble a cram school. We regularly rally against teaching to the test. We can't have it both ways. Cramming is not valuable, it simply isn't, it is only valuable in a very narrowly delusional, zero sum worldview but it's not a policy.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#193

Post by solveit »

zamfi wrote: post #117
applecrazy wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this is likely a way to reduce asian american attendance at the top UC schools This is exactly what I was thinking when I read the Times article about this yesterday. I also applied to college last year, so I have a pretty recent knowledge of the process. I spent a grand total of $28 and managed to get a 99th percentile score on the SAT. To claim it’s impossible to score high on that test without money is absolutel…

> I spent a grand total of $28 and managed to get a 99th percentile score on the SAT. To claim it’s impossible to score high on that test without money is absolutely false. No one is claiming it's "impossible", and I don't want to minimize your experience -- 20 years ago, I also scored 99th percentile on the SAT with only $15 spent on practice books -- but it's absolutely not the norm. The reality is that a SAT score…

> The reality is that a SAT scores correlate with wealth.

Everything good correlates with wealth. Wealth is quite literally the ability to make things happen.

The relevant question is, do SAT scores correlate with wealth more or less than whatever holistic criteria the UCs will be switching to? And if they correlate more, is it because the holistic criteria are actually fairer or because the UCs are Goodharting on highly visible measures such as wealth?

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#195

Post by Balgair »

The connections between this decision, the recent Students for Fair Admission INC v Harvard, and the Varsity Blues scandal are striking. The interesting tid-bit is the Varsity Blues information.

Previously, the price of bribery was unknown. The economics of such a trade, illegal as it was, were murky. With the unmasking of the scheme, including possible angles, and now a known bargaining price point, the whole admissions process has become much clearer.

Covid19, throws a wrench into everything, including college admissions. But these other mechanisms of entry are still in place.

I suspect that the admissions departments are about to get a lot larger. Especially with the ability to use Zoom for everything now.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#196

Post by eej71 »

slg wrote: post #104
eej71 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. "Creating their own test". Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Except if most other schools follow this path, the average student will go from 1 boss to 5+. That end result would almost unquestionably be worse for the kids this is trying to help.

Very much agree. Of course this will drive up the cost of these elite prep programs because you'll need to find one that has the capability to summarize so many different tests and provide essentialized coaching. That won't come cheap. So only the very wealthy will have the means for this.

Another fine piece of work brought to us by the good intentions paving company.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#197

Post by ciarannolan »

mjfl wrote: post #88

They're trying to reduce the number of Asians at the school, plain and simple.

Even more ironic is that Asian students from the _exact same_ income levels and neighborhoods are still outperforming their peers.

Maybe there's another solution besides blatant racism.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#198

Post by ciarannolan »

jwilber wrote: post #128

UC Berkeley alumni here. Don’t know that this is a good thing. Currently, the UC’s provide a lot of weight to holistic applications. These often favor privileged kids, as they have access to far more opportunities than others. For some, the SAT provided a sort of leveling field in that regard. Still, it wasn’t perfect, but I fail to see how what they come up with will fix the issue. Of interest is that all of this is…

>These often favor privileged kids, as they have access to far more opportunities than others.

I think these "holistic" admissions do the opposite. They allow a small group of college administrators to pick which "backgrounds" they want to make up the freshman class each year.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#199

Post by ciarannolan »

jariel wrote: post #157

This pragmatically means the administrators are free to pursue their biased and ideological policy objectives. I loathe to be so cynical but 'roughly objective' measures are usually better than none.

> This pragmatically means the administrators are free to pursue their biased and ideological policy objectives.

This is the express purpose of this change.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#200

Post by ciarannolan »

gliese1337 wrote: post #59
karanke wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're creating their own test. > The unanimous 23-to-0 vote ratified a proposal put forward last month by UC President Janet Napolitano to phase out the exams over the next five years until the sprawling UC system can develop its own test.

If they were to implement a new test, I can pretty much guarantee applications would drop like a rock; it would have the essential effect of limiting the applicant pool to Californians who don't want to go out-of-state for college--'cause when anyone else is applying for colleges, do you really think they'll want to take another big test just to add the UC system on to the big list that they can already apply to with…

Maybe the University of California system should primarily serve the people of California.
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