Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#191

Post by davidgh » Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 4:34 PM UTC

thoraway1010 wrote: post #123

whoisjuan wrote: post #17

Stating the obvious I guess. All retailers do this and create their own white-label brands to squeeze profit from well-performing categories. Target, for instance, is very upfront about it and they have like a gazillion white-label brands that compete in hundreds of categories, which makes it very gray for the customer. Does anyone really think that any retailer launches a competing product in a category without look…

This is totally false - the number of retailers who have testified before congress that they don't use seller data to compete against sellers - and then who go ahead and do just that is basically zero. Additionally, most other retailers actually BUY the third parties products and take the risk of promoting and selling it. On Amazon third parties take the inventory and many other risks and may have to pay amazon to pr…

> This is totally false - the number of retailers who have testified before congress that they don't use seller data to compete against sellers - and then who go ahead and do just that is basically zero.

I can't understand this at all. Retailers create in-house brands all the time. Do they somehow make decisions of which products to create in a black box? How would they even do that?

If you go into the Walmart pharmacy, their store-brand equivalents are full of statements such as "Compare to the active ingredient in Advil".

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#192

Post by whoisjuan » Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 4:34 PM UTC

thoraway1010 wrote: post #123

whoisjuan wrote: post #17

Stating the obvious I guess. All retailers do this and create their own white-label brands to squeeze profit from well-performing categories. Target, for instance, is very upfront about it and they have like a gazillion white-label brands that compete in hundreds of categories, which makes it very gray for the customer. Does anyone really think that any retailer launches a competing product in a category without look…

This is totally false - the number of retailers who have testified before congress that they don't use seller data to compete against sellers - and then who go ahead and do just that is basically zero. Additionally, most other retailers actually BUY the third parties products and take the risk of promoting and selling it. On Amazon third parties take the inventory and many other risks and may have to pay amazon to pr…

I mean, let's be objective for a minute here. Do you really believe that Walmart, Target, Costco, Kroger, etc, are more ethical with their suppliers than Amazon?

Let's not forget that many of these large retailers have moved to the practice of taking up to 90 days to pay their suppliers. 90 DAYS! That's three months before you see the money of the product you sold through their channels. And they do this because they simply can.

I believe that there's not a single retailer that doesn't leverage its distribution advantage to squeeze their suppliers. If you're not Coca Cola, PepsiCo, Unilever, Procter and Gamble or Colgate Palmolive, you have little to no room for negotiation.

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#193

Post by stevemadere » Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 4:34 PM UTC

Surprise Surprise. So did HEB, Safeway, etc.

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#194

Post by sacks2k » Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 4:35 PM UTC

a_wild_dandan wrote: post #43

tcarn wrote: post #14

Amazon makes life so hard for their suppliers it doesn't even surprise me. I once shipped a box of 10 laptops to sell on FBA (retail value ~$10k) and UPS showed the box as delivered, Amazon checked in the units and showed them available for sale on the website. Then 24 hours later all of them got removed saying I sent the inaccurate quantity in the box and none where now available for sale. The laptops disappeared an…

Subreddits tend to wildly misrepresent reality due to survivorship bias. People generally don't post or noodle through such communities when things are going well. That's not to say there isn't a significant supplier issue -- just be aware of the company you keep. I often forget to be critical of the bubbles I inhabit. In any case, I do wonder if Amazon's treatment of folk like you would improve considerably if Amazo…

"Subreddits tend to wildly misrepresent reality due to survivorship bias"

I disagree. If Amazon had great customer service, there wouldn't be a large volume of people complaining.

"In any case, I do wonder if Amazon's treatment of folk like you would improve considerably if Amazon had competitio"

I agree with you here. The only two marketplaces that actually get traffic are Ebay and Amazon. I've tried them all over the years and the rest combined don't even come close.

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#195

Post by hanniabu » Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 4:35 PM UTC

mtone wrote: post #122

hanniabu wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't solve anything. They'd just split their company to be separate entities but still share all the information and operate as if nothing has changed.

Isn't that collusion?

Partnership

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#196

Post by annoyingnoob » Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 4:36 PM UTC

zrobotics wrote: post #90

annoyingnoob wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, this is not great for the consumer. It lowers the bar for everyone. What I find mostly on Amazon in the past year or so is cheaper imported versions of decent products. The decent products are hard to find or I have to look outside of Amazon. They've pushed out the quality and replaced it with higher profit junk. Its kind of the same thing with Home Depot. I used to be able to buy quality hardware from a local st…

Tip- check out Fastenal. They don't tend to have small retail packages, so you need to buy larger quantities, but it's really nice not to have to wait for shipping. They're an industrial supplier, but all the stores I've been in were perfectly happy to sell to the general public.

If I place a McMaster order by 10:30am I get it the same day, if not its tomorrow. Easier than going to the store.

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#197

Post by JumpCrisscross » Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 4:37 PM UTC

oehpr wrote: post #28

mensetmanusman wrote: post #13

Based on how much Amazon will grow during this pandemic, I wouldn’t be surprised if they are cut up by government to reduce their power to destroy any competitor.

has there been any antitrust activity in the united states recently? Like... past 10 years? Particularly given the current administrations disposition, I think pinning your hopes to anti-trust is like financially planning around lottery tickets.

> has there been any antitrust activity in the united states recently?

Yes, lots [1][2]. (I count fourteen cases year to date.)

[1] https://www.ftc.gov/enforcement/cases-proceedings/terms/217

[2] https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/terms/217

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#198

Post by vntok » Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 4:37 PM UTC

johnmarcus wrote: post #40

MichaelApproved wrote: post #25

The solution isn't hoping the free market would solve this with a competing platform. The solution is to create regulations & laws that prevent this behavior. You're either a platform/retailer or you're a manufacturer. You don't get to be both because we see the perverse incentive that happens when it's allowed.

that solves the problem for suppliers, but creates one for consumers with lower competition. Less competition, higher prices. *just noticed I was down voted, likely by MichaelApproved because he has 7500 Karma and I only have 156. I'm starting to really hate contributing to HackerNews discussions because it's fully of a bunch of bullies who pound on your karma if you don't agree with their viewpoints. Bring on the do…

Please don't submit comments saying that HN is turning into Reddit. It's a semi-noob illusion, as old as the hills.

Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading.

To your point, though, lower competition is not always bad. I as a consumer very much prefer having to deal with fewer toilet paper suppliers if they are of good enough quality. The toilet paper industry is not one where I expect dramatic innovation brought by competition. I just want the cheapest pack that won't feel like sand paper on my delicate behind.

There are, surprisingly, quite a lot of similar industries where consumer would prefer cheap and fast rather than elaborate and innovative products.

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#199

Post by thoraway1010 » Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 4:38 PM UTC

whoisjuan wrote: post #192

thoraway1010 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is totally false - the number of retailers who have testified before congress that they don't use seller data to compete against sellers - and then who go ahead and do just that is basically zero. Additionally, most other retailers actually BUY the third parties products and take the risk of promoting and selling it. On Amazon third parties take the inventory and many other risks and may have to pay amazon to pr…

I mean, let's be objective for a minute here. Do you really believe that Walmart, Target, Costco, Kroger, etc, are more ethical with their suppliers than Amazon? Let's not forget that many of these large retailers have moved to the practice of taking up to 90 days to pay their suppliers. 90 DAYS! That's three months before you see the money of the product you sold through their channels. And they do this because they…

I've done consulting for small business distributing into major stories.

Other stores are very very UPFRONT on what they will do. Many make the small mfg sign an agreement that not only will the store have all the data, but the mfg will need to pay the STORE if they want the data.

The difference here is that a) it is all upfront and b) the mfg can make an informed decision - is this worth it.

If you need store / day detail on sales because you are running promos and in-store marketing vs just being a low cost volume seller - all affect your view of this.

Finally, in grocery retail - once you have the order and deliver, you DO get paid regardless of whether product sells. This is an important positive even selling through Target in some cases especially with more perishable goods. Amazon as a seller you can't plan as well - their alog or someone else paying for promo could cut your demand in half overnight.

Additionally retail stores actually drive demand / discover ability when they purchase your product in a way amazon often does not.

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#200

Post by toasterlovin » Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 4:41 PM UTC

acwan93 wrote: post #50

Tiktaalik wrote: post #33

The key difference between what Amazon does and Costco/Walmart etc does, is that regular retail takes the risk of buying the product to resell, prior to gathering data and considering whether to clone it. Amazon is able to snoop on all the sales data without any risk.

We sell an ERP catered to distributors and many do sell on Amazon. I’ve always wondered why on earth they would continue to sell on a platform that’s constantly gathering their selling data, or even inventory if they’re going FBA, and eventually try to undercut them if their products sell well. Their response is usually “I’m making enough money now, why worry about later?” or “our product category is too niche for Am…

When your customers say that their product is too niche, they're probably right in a lot of cases. The argument that Amazon can enter every niche and cater to every consumer want is essentially saying that planned economies can actually function. But they can't. Amazon is skimming the highest volume product categories and that's it. They couldn't manage the complexity of branching out into every single long tail product.