Pro drivers are competing with gamers after F1 and Nascar canceled races • Hacker News Board

Re: Pro drivers are competing with gamers after F1 and Nascar canceled races

#191

Post by Measter » Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 1:19 PM UTC

LoSboccacc wrote: post #58

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me, the interesting question is not whether the experience is the same for the driver, because obviously it cannot be. What's interesting is whether the skills transfer. I would assume they do to some degree, but there are probably bits you can't learn except by doing. The reason why the question is interesting is because I love the notion that you can train in a less expensive context and then perform in a higher…

I've driven on tracks on touring days, so not exactly a race driver, but still. the lack of proper feedback from g forces make harder on sims to understand what the car is doing. a good wheel can help since you get back part of the wheel loading/unloading and at least you know how to navigate the last 20 meters of corner entry properly, giving enough warning of when the front is letting to, but for what the rear is g…

I would disagree that it's impossible to tell what the rear's doing in a sim. I've never driven a real vehicle outside of a few times in a low-powered kart, so I don't know what it's like in that scenario. I assume there's some physical feedback through the seat about what the car's doing.

But when I'm driving in VR in iRacing or Assetto Corsa I can tell when the rear is about to step out. It can't be track-based memory because I can tell on tracks I've never driven on before. I don't think it's through the wheel, but rather some sort of visual cue about how the car is moving.

I would assume that visual cue is there in a real car as well, but isn't needed because you have the physical feeling.

Re: Pro drivers are competing with gamers after F1 and Nascar canceled races

#192

Post by BoorishBears » Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 2:04 PM UTC

Retric wrote: post #126

BoorishBears wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not a race car driver but I do track my car pretty often There are people out there who use simulators and very detailed data logging in their track cars to try and experiment with things like braking habits. Saying it’s “nothing alike” honestly feels like gate keeping. Obviously a video game played from your couch is not going to feel like hurtling thousands of pounds of metal around a track, but if you can’t dr…

The article is about F1 so that’s the benchmark people are using. Other types of races have their own specific issues. NASCAR for example has lower absolute peak physical demands, but longer races turn into a much larger test of both physical and mental endurance. Given say 3 years to prepare I suspect many could make the jump, but it’s likely well below half.

The article is about gamers also...

The jump to F1 and even NASCAR is ridiculous...

Again, SCCA is a 50,000 member organization. NASA is another large racing org.

You should imagine that most NASCAR racers are not racing for the first time when they first enter a stock car, things like Spec Miata and even competitive go-karting are not any less “real” racing, to say otherwise is gatekeeping.

Re: Pro drivers are competing with gamers after F1 and Nascar canceled races

#193

Post by yboris » Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 2:15 PM UTC

op03 wrote: post #181

djaychela wrote: post #150

It's definitely not circuit racing, but I had some experience in Rally driving for about 10 years. Did mostly gravel stuff, and did the UK WRC round 4 times in a self built car. Definitely low budget (and low talent!) stuff, but I think I have some experience and know how a car should handle on a loose surface. I've never found a rally driving game that handles like a real car. The physics always seems off - in Dirt…

Obligatory - Also navigator excitement - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9-voINFkCg

Thank you for sharing!

Re: Pro drivers are competing with gamers after F1 and Nascar canceled races

#194

Post by koffiezet » Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 2:42 PM UTC

agoodthrowaway wrote: post #97

handedness wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counterpoint: as someone who's also raced both to a sufficient degree to know (from well before GPL to rFactor and iRacing in terms of simulators, and in KT100, Super Comp and other real-world categories), the skills are far more transferable than you're indicating. There's still a big difference between the two, but "almost nothing in common" is not an accurate description. And there's a reason the top guys on eithe…

Not raced cars but raced motorcycles and the very real difference is the vast sensory overload when you’re approaching corners, while in traffic, late braking trying to overtake, trying to stay in the power, being in the right gear, while protecting. By the way all of this is on the edge of your ability, you walk a line crossing back and forth between triumph and catastrophe. The heat is a very real thing and really…

> In the real world there is physical danger and real significant consequences to making a mistake. A mistake can end your life. In a game you just lose.

Games can also get immersive and your adrenaline pumping. Now I'm not a racing pilot, and have very little track experience, but I know a few people who have, and have a nice setup for iracing at home, which according to them allows them to hone their reaction speed and try out moves and train moves. Yes you remove the physical part, but you do get immersed in the situation.

Point in case, Max Verstappen trained a specific overtake move on the Spa circuit at the Blanchimont corner on iracing with his teammates there [1]. And then he pulled off exactly that same move in a real race [2], which was one ballsy move to pull off irl.

But it's a very good example of the sims allowing them to fail without much risk gives them the possibility to experiment at will, and at least partially train their brains to handle such a situation.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Y5-DZNjBOg

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=788IiRsxMqM (sadly potato quality)

Re: Pro drivers are competing with gamers after F1 and Nascar canceled races

#195

Post by Retric » Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 2:43 PM UTC

BoorishBears wrote: post #192

Retric wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article is about F1 so that’s the benchmark people are using. Other types of races have their own specific issues. NASCAR for example has lower absolute peak physical demands, but longer races turn into a much larger test of both physical and mental endurance. Given say 3 years to prepare I suspect many could make the jump, but it’s likely well below half.

The article is about gamers also... The jump to F1 and even NASCAR is ridiculous... Again, SCCA is a 50,000 member organization. NASA is another large racing org. You should imagine that most NASCAR racers are not racing for the first time when they first enter a stock car, things like Spec Miata and even competitive go-karting are not any less “real” racing, to say otherwise is gatekeeping.

It’s not about how real the sports are, or even the level of competition. It’s about what abilities transfer. A world class marathon runner needs serious endurance like a world class biathlon athlete, but they don’t need very good vision.

Physical abilities can be improved within a range, but once the competition gets good enough you need a baseline genetic competence to be competitive. As in you don’t need to be 6’10” to play in the NBA but you can’t be 3’2”. Further, being extremely tall reduces the difficulty in competing in the NBA.

On example not mentioned, is professional F1/Indycar/NASCAR drivers benefit from being able to rapidly change visual focus in ways that video game players looking at flat screens don’t need to. On it’s own not a big deal, but that’s just one difference among many.

Re: Pro drivers are competing with gamers after F1 and Nascar canceled races

#196

Post by dasil003 » Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 2:44 PM UTC

lmilcin wrote: post #142

dasil003 wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cars have artificial controls that are relatively easy to simulate. Any sport where the primary impact is full human body mechanics is not likely to have a sim with transferable skills.

Car racing. In car racing as a driver you typically get your input through your seat and steering wheel. Due to lack of g-forces in typical simulator this is all compressed to force feedback in steering wheel. There are really powerful steering wheels that have very high definition of vibration and forces they can transfer and this gives a lot of information about how the car is doing on the track, whether you are lo…

I’m not saying a sim is like real racing. I’m saying that human-car interface allows for play-control that maps to the real activity in a way a soccer or snowboarding game never can.

Re: Pro drivers are competing with gamers after F1 and Nascar canceled races

#197

Post by edsancha » Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 2:44 PM UTC

antientropic wrote: post #33

W-Stool wrote: post #12

As someone who has raced formula race cars and who has been an enthusiastic participant in racing simulations since way back in the old days of Grand Prix Legends let me assure you - a simulated race car has almost nothing in common with the real experience other than your hands are turning a wheel and your feet push pedals. The sensations in a real race car are simply overwhelming - the noise, g forces, heat, and th…

On the contrary: there is probably no sport where the sim is so close to the real thing. Being good at FIFA 19 in no way will make you good at real football. But if you put a decent sim racer in a real race car, they are often able to put together a decent lap pretty quickly. See for instance some of Jimmy Broadbent's recent adventures in real-life racing. Conversely, real-life drivers tend to be good at simracing (e…

Platforms like Zwift give professional cyclists a platform to practice their skills. It's widely used and fans ride with professionals on a daily basis. You definitely can't feel the wind, but you can get the benefits from the simulation.

Re: Pro drivers are competing with gamers after F1 and Nascar canceled races

#198

Post by edsancha » Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 2:47 PM UTC

I love the initiative, but I disagree with the paragraph saying: "That’s obviously not the case with other sports." Esports cyclist racing is growing and it translates almost 1:1 real-life skills.

Re: Pro drivers are competing with gamers after F1 and Nascar canceled races

#199

Post by fredzel » Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 3:18 PM UTC

ItsMattyG wrote: post #124

hermitdev wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My car has g-force sensors. I know from experience, it can only handle 1 lateral G before it starts to slide (in a 4-door sedan wrighing around 3500 lbs). Thats with Z-rated tires. What F1 and Indy cars can pull off is absolutely amazing. Most of what they can do is purely because of the aerodynamics and the insane downforce they produce. I remember hearing somewhere that an Indy car produces enough downforce at spee…

Ok so why are there not upside down tracks in formula 1 this just seems like the obvious next step.

We should just go full Trackmania

Re: Pro drivers are competing with gamers after F1 and Nascar canceled races

#200

Post by mrguyorama » Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 3:22 PM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #75

cosmodisk wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's only one thing that comes closer to reality: MS Flight Simulator...

or X-Plane?

Having purchased X-Plane 11 while waiting for the new MSFS, and previously coming from an unmodded copy of FSX, I have never been more disappointed in a simulator product. I don't know how a system made with more than 10 years of extra effort can fall so far behind the competition. The terrain looks like garbage and doesn't make sense (Why did you generate a high voltage power line IN the road, you know exactly where both are!?) and the roads look amateur at best, the built in planes are mediocre and uninteresting, with half of them feeling nearly unimplemented at best, ATC that is completely unusable, and somehow worse performance, with a VR mode that feels not even quarter-assed. The minimum I can say for it is the interface seems okay and usable.

I guess it's not the market leader for a reason