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MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

mitadmissions.org

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Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#191

Post by triceratops »

ghaff wrote: post #164
triceratops wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does the government getting involved in education have anything to do with the monopoly power of ETS? MIT is private, ETS's owner is a company. The problem is that MIT accepts only SAT scores - they should be forced to accept other standardized test scores too. That would create an actual market for standardized testing, along with competition and lower prices.

According to the original article, MIT accepts SAT or ACT. I have no idea if SAT is preferred though. It was certainly the default way back when when I was applying to schools.

That's just a duopoly. Gotta have at least 3 - maybe 4.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#192

Post by opportune »

fairenough42 wrote: post #181
opportune wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All this would do is benefit the already-privileged and create affinity bias. Basically just affirmative action for white people from middle class and above homes.

Why do you feel the need to name white people specifically?

Well, I am white and think that there is a difference in the way people socialize depending on their socioeconomic status, the area they grew up in, and the culture/language they are exposed to at home. And in the US it’s basically all white people who are most advantaged in these aspects. It will likely change over time as more Hispanic/Asian people become second+ generation immigrants rather than first, though

I remember going to college not so long ago and meeting kids who had grown up in the US who still had an accent/manner of speaking that they got from their parents (like a Chinese or Spanish accent). And of course there are very smart kids who grow up with AAVE or strong regional accents, some of whom are probably white but who probably aren’t from a good socioeconomic class.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#193

Post by jimmyvalmer »

pulisse wrote: post #180
jimmyvalmer wrote: post #104

These were called "Achievement Tests" in the early 90s, and man, they were much harder than the SAT. If the current "Subject Tests" approximate their level of difficulty, then it's a clear mistake for MIT to disregard these datapoints. When I was applying to college, yes, people paid for SAT prep but very few paid for Achievement Test prep, and so Achievement Tests were a superior indicator.

> These were called "Achievement Tests" in the early 90s, and man, they were much harder than the SAT. If the current "Subject Tests" approximate their level of difficulty, then it's a clear mistake for MIT to disregard these datapoints Difficulty as perceived by test takers is irrelevant. What MIT cares about is how well test performance predicts undergrad performance. As TFA notes, MIT is retaining the standard SAT…

We don't disagree. I remain dubious that excluding a subject test term wouldn't deteriorate MIT's scoring model.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#194

Post by hintymad »

knzhou wrote: post #57

Anybody cheering the exclusion of some test or other, because it was a pain to study for in high school, is simply not noticing the frog-boiling secondary effects going on. Every bit of emphasis taken out of objective results mean more advantage for smooth talking, photogenic, well-connected people. Yes, some misguided parents waste thousands of dollars on SAT courses. But students can also prep using the $20 officia…

The problem of SAT is not that it can be prep'd, but it is too easy to be differentiating, and too simple so people can game it.

By the way, isn't depending on SAT for years and everyone bitching about SAT is a gross failure of our education system? Take any serious test, be it STEM competitions, JEE, or NCEE, multiple-choice questions are the easiest part. The differentiating questions are all kinds of word problems. Yet the US can't afford such test, but countries like India and China can.

And why do people in the US, the most developed and the richest country in the world, complain that people can prep the SAT. It's truly a shame. In countries like China, it is public schools that produce the best students. It is the public schools that set high standards for the country. It is the public schools that come up with amazing text books and problem sets. Tutoring in China is joke. Classes offered by public schools are legendary. Something is wrong in the US.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#195

Post by ThrowawayR2 »

knzhou wrote: post #94
quotemstr wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anybody cheering the exclusion of some test or other, because it was a pain to study for in high school, is simply not noticing the frog-boiling secondary effects going on. Every bit of emphasis taken out of objective results mean more advantage for smooth talking, photogenic, well-connected people. Absolutely right. Standardized testing become popular in the first place as an egalitarian measure, a way to combat i…

The bribery scandal especially depresses me, because a lot of the colleges impacted had official bribery systems in place -- you're supposed to donate to the "Development Office" to get on the "Dean's List", or some other set of euphemisms. What the colleges were actually outraged about is that these middling-rich people tried to cheap out by paying a smaller bribe to some other office.

If someone donates enough money for a lab or an entire building or something that can be used by students for decades as a means to get their underperforming kid in, yeah, that's technically a bribe but I'm kind of okay with that because the good so vastly outweighs the bad.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#196

Post by gedy »

knzhou wrote: post #57

Anybody cheering the exclusion of some test or other, because it was a pain to study for in high school, is simply not noticing the frog-boiling secondary effects going on. Every bit of emphasis taken out of objective results mean more advantage for smooth talking, photogenic, well-connected people. Yes, some misguided parents waste thousands of dollars on SAT courses. But students can also prep using the $20 officia…

> mean more advantage for smooth talking, photogenic, well-connected people.

But see it's all okay if those smooth talking, photogenic, well-connected elites are more diverse in race/gender/etc

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#197

Post by Der_Einzige »

ivalm wrote: post #159
mgkimsal wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

30 years ago, the ACT test changed enough that it was no longer a valid test to use as entry for Mensa. Prior to 1990, an ACT test could be used as evidence for Mensa admission. So... the ACT wasn't always 'a joke', but doesn't have the same impact that it had decades ago.

A lot of people would argue that Mensa itself is a joke...

I always tell people this who want "only high IQ" people to run society.

"Oh, you want the people at Mensa to run your society?"

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#198

Post by opportune »

Der_Einzige wrote: post #197
ivalm wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of people would argue that Mensa itself is a joke...

I always tell people this who want "only high IQ" people to run society. "Oh, you want the people at Mensa to run your society?"

Well to be fair, those are the subset of high IQ people who have the time/desire to join a club about having a high IQ. Kind of an adverse selection bias

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#199

Post by jldugger »

knzhou wrote: post #57

Anybody cheering the exclusion of some test or other, because it was a pain to study for in high school, is simply not noticing the frog-boiling secondary effects going on. Every bit of emphasis taken out of objective results mean more advantage for smooth talking, photogenic, well-connected people. Yes, some misguided parents waste thousands of dollars on SAT courses. But students can also prep using the $20 officia…

IMO, the subject tests are kind of a niche environment. You can't prep for them with the $20 official book and there are like 20 of them. (Also Amazon lists it for 30 but we get the point). You basically need to go to a school where they offer AP coursework, and pay something close to $100 bucks to the College Board to take subject tests.

When I was doing college search, the only college I recall that requested these subject tests was MIT.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#200

Post by NikolaeVarius »

WalterBright wrote: post #176
pge wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And eliminate legacy preference and ability for sports coaches to influence admissions.

I was rejected by MIT even though my father attended. I don't think MIT does legacy admissions, or sports admissions.

legacy preference just gives you a +1, not guaranteed.
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