The dystopian world of software engineering interviews • Hacker News Board

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#191

Post by phkahler » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 1:46 AM UTC

paxys wrote: post #115

ideal0227 wrote: post #90

When my classmates were preparing interview coding questions, I was working on a mini TCP implementation and a toy kernel. AWS rejected me since I failed to write prefect code to traverse a tree in level order. Google did not even give me an interview since I told the campus recruiter I have not prepared for the coding questions. Then I ended up with an internship at CoreOS and created etcd. I am glad that they did n…

Hah! Reminds me of https://twitter.com/mxcl/status/608682016205344768 . Cynical answer though — Google does not want people like you. They don't want to hire entrepreneurs or inventors. They want people who can churn out code when given specific instructions, and that is what their interview process optimizes for.

>> They want people who can churn out code when given specific instructions, and that is what their interview process optimizes for.

Somehow I doubt that. Can anyone who actually works at google comment on what it's like? Do people come to you with specific requirement and expect you to crank out code like the interview problems?

I've never worked somewhere where the software folks were actually just coding machines.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#192

Post by jrockway » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 1:47 AM UTC

ddevault wrote: post #64

I think Giant Search and Advertising should make the interview more difficult, then more difficult still, then cease hiring entirely, then atrophy employees until they die and/or are legislated out of existence. You - yes, you, HN reader who already works at one of these companies - are ethically responsible for the actions of your employer. When you're the one on the front lines helping realize their dystopian dream…

> Don't work for FAANG.

What did Netflix do? And don't we like Apple now? They ship crypto to billions that annoys the government's spyware programs.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#193

Post by Cu3PO42 » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 1:47 AM UTC

gonehome wrote: post #119

Cu3PO42 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I must admit I always feel weird when I see numbers like that mentioned for software engineers. In Germany a more reasonable number with a few years of experience might be in the €50-55k ballpark. Granted, the cost of living is significantly lower in most cities here than it is in the bay area, but still it just feels... weird. Edit: Fixed a typo.

I think Europe (and the UK) undervalue software engineers. At least in the UK this seems like a cultural thing where management is high status/high value and engineers are low status/low value. I think the US generally gets this right (at least in silicon valley), but it could partly be because the US has some extremely valuable software companies that operate on a global stage that aren't really present elsewhere. R…

I realise this is tangential to the original topic, but this notion that the UK is not a part of Europe (and therefore mentioned separately) seems really weird to me. They can leave the EU as much as they want, but it doesn't change the fact that physically they're still in Europe.

Is this because of some perceived notion of cultural differences? Because if we're starting to draw lines based on that we probably need to divide mainland Europe into a bunch of separate parts as well.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#194

Post by turbostyler » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 1:47 AM UTC

parsimo2010 wrote: post #33

Comedian Daniel Tosh had a bit about people that claimed to be smart, it's just that they were just bad at taking tests. He said, "oh, so you struggle with the part where we find out what you actually know?" I hear a lot of complaints about the "typical" software engineering hiring process, and it usually comes from the people that don't do well within the current system. Could the process be improved? Almost certain…

Every time this discussion pops up, there's this naive idiot who thinks that because he's good at these types of interviews, anyone who isn't must be incompetent. They always without fail mention "high-pressure" situations and ignorantly assume that people with performance anxiety can't handle a completely different type of pressure. They also make the ridiculous assumption that pressure is objective. This time, that idiot is you.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#195

Post by z3t4 » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 1:47 AM UTC

parsimo2010 wrote: post #114

kyllo wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ability to acquire and apply technical knowledge, and ability to demonstrate random technical knowledge under time pressure, in a foreign environment, while other people are watching and judging you, are orthogonal skills and many engineers are great at the former and terrible at the latter. There's also a ton of opinion and taste involved in software engineering, which can bias the interviewer's view of someone'…

Time pressure, foreign environments, and people watching/judging your work are all exactly the things that happen when you're developing stuff that hasn't been done. You run into problems. You find out that requirements or an API spec weren't perfectly written and have to deal with change. You have to work with other people, and they will judge you. Hard coding exercises with a time limit that have an answer that can…

The market will eventually shift and they will not see it as they are not in touch of reality and everyone there are in the same bubble. It will be something you can not fix with money.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#196

Post by kohtatsu » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 1:48 AM UTC

paxys wrote: post #115

ideal0227 wrote: post #90

When my classmates were preparing interview coding questions, I was working on a mini TCP implementation and a toy kernel. AWS rejected me since I failed to write prefect code to traverse a tree in level order. Google did not even give me an interview since I told the campus recruiter I have not prepared for the coding questions. Then I ended up with an internship at CoreOS and created etcd. I am glad that they did n…

Hah! Reminds me of https://twitter.com/mxcl/status/608682016205344768 . Cynical answer though — Google does not want people like you. They don't want to hire entrepreneurs or inventors. They want people who can churn out code when given specific instructions, and that is what their interview process optimizes for.

False; Google wants everyone like them to keep them away from the competition.

Edit: it's unfair to single Google out. It's unfortunately the correct game theory and impossible to regulate.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#197

Post by tracerbulletx » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 1:48 AM UTC

You need to follow a pretty similar path to get good at competitive programming, which seems to be what that type of interview optimizes for. Know lots of optimal approaches to a large class of problems, and be able to very quickly identify and classify the problem you are given and apply those approaches to solve the specific problem. I agree this isn't really a good match for real-life work. I'm pretty happy with my non MFAANG job but I took up competitive programming as a hobby just so I can have options next time I want to change jobs.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#198

Post by ummonk » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 1:48 AM UTC

JMTQp8lwXL wrote: post #85

The evolution of the software engineering interview is a consequence of people gaming the metric. As the author points out, once the cat got out of the bag, the problems became increasingly challenging. The real consequence is for wages. By making interviews a ceremonious practice where even engineers with years of experience need to spend a month Leetcoding, you severely restrict the talent pool. It discourages poac…

A month is 8% of a year, so it seems like a worthwhile tradeoff to spend a month learning to interview instead of being paid 10-15% less.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#199

Post by Cu3PO42 » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 1:48 AM UTC

ummonk wrote: post #167

gonehome wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Europe (and the UK) undervalue software engineers. At least in the UK this seems like a cultural thing where management is high status/high value and engineers are low status/low value. I think the US generally gets this right (at least in silicon valley), but it could partly be because the US has some extremely valuable software companies that operate on a global stage that aren't really present elsewhere. R…

From the numbers I've seen, Zurich is the one exception that pays comparably to the Bay Area, NYC, and Seattle.

Unfortunately Zurich may also compare on cost of living. Maybe that's all there is to it, but I somehow doubt that.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#200

Post by krtong » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 1:49 AM UTC

parsimo2010 wrote: post #33

Comedian Daniel Tosh had a bit about people that claimed to be smart, it's just that they were just bad at taking tests. He said, "oh, so you struggle with the part where we find out what you actually know?" I hear a lot of complaints about the "typical" software engineering hiring process, and it usually comes from the people that don't do well within the current system. Could the process be improved? Almost certain…

Just remember that Herbert Hoover was a terrible test taker. His colleagues vouched for his brilliance because they read his previous work and thought he was a genius. It turned out he was the type to spend a lot of time revising his answers until they were perfect, so under any sort of timed test he would fail, including his entrance exam into Stanford.

I'm only sharing that factoid because I find it interesting. Maybe Herbert was a terrible engineer by today's standards. He almost certainly wouldn't be president today for completely different reasons, but would he be have been accepted into Stanford? Would he even make it as an engineer? I don't know--certainly not if we put as much weight as we do on tests.