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On Resigning from Google

alphabetworkers.org

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Re: On Resigning from Google

#191
post #181
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a sometimes engineering manager (I generally prefer to be a staffy, you know, doing analyst functions for the CEO, etc.), this is interesting to me. Can you give me any ideas on what I should be on the look-out for, in terms of behavior, among the team-mates? I "get" that it's not visible (sort of), but I don't get how to be on guard for it, prevent it or deal with it if we can't see it. How does a manager see the…

Yeah, it's tricky to see for sure. I don't pretend to have all or even some of the answers here, but since you asked, and it's a great question, I'll take a stab at it. First, I'd just make sure that people are happy. If people are honestly happy and enjoying their job, they probably aren't having a problem. Talk to them and figure it out is the most direct way. Indirect ways I would say include: Social dynamics: Doe…

Thanks for that.

I guess I've been fortunate in that, all of the people being excluded were truly not pulling their own (traditional) weight because they were going through family trauma and on anti-depressants or something. (Divorce, loss of a child, etc.). People were pretty forgiving, but definitely didn't want them in critical path.

The handful (let me say, 5 G, 2L and 2T across 10 small teams over 5 years that I am going to use as a sample, circa 1995~2000) of alphabet people (is that phrase offensive?), were objectively AWESOME in terms of personality and group engagement and work performance. It really was never a problem. Maybe we hired well. Maybe we were lucky. I guess I haven't seen the passive-aggressive exclusionary thing you are talking about, but I will keep an eye out for it in the future.

Again: Thank you.

Re: On Resigning from Google

#192
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how? How do we know that employees provide more value than their compensation? Because Google makes profit.

So? Facebook makes profit, the gas station down the street makes profit. How does a software engineer at Google worth more value than one at timbuktu? No, they are not. They just are not in the right place at the right time. Do you think selling ads is changing the world? Do you think that makes you worth more than someone else? Wake up and smell the coffee.

> the gas station down the street makes profit

The gas station down the street isn't paying its employees six figure salaries. That employee might be making $7.25 an hour, which is the federal limit. Assuming 40 hours per week and 52 weeks per year (no time off!), that's 15k before taxes. Is that gas station clerk a better/more worthwhile person than a gas station clerk in timbuktu?

> Do you think that makes you worth more than someone else?

Getting paid more than someone else doesn't make you a better person than someone else. It just means you're earning more income, and that company is willing to pay you that income for any multitude of reasons. That's it.

Programmers can provide immense value to companies, and companies make handsome profits despite paying their engineers immense salaries. This also has to do with cost of living in some areas: chicago is more expensive than many places in the world, so if you want to base a company in chicago and pay someone who lives in chicago to work for you, you need more money. It's not rocket science.

I think many companies don't need to be based in SF or Seattle, etc, but that's another discussion.

Re: On Resigning from Google

#193

My anecdotal observation is that Google is currently experiencing a (slight) brain drain... Many highly qualified and experienced engineers have recently left. I wonder how many 1x engineers it is going to take to maintain all that software when the 100x and 10x engineers are gone. Not a simple math problem.

It's a knife that cuts many ways. Personally I wouldn't take a position there in 2020. Not because of what they're working on--I'd be fine working for a defense contractor--but rather because I don't want to deal with ideological drama on a regular basis. Work is work. If I decide to save the world, I'll do it on my own time with my own earnings, and my employer will be none the wiser.

Re: On Resigning from Google

#195
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is like saying the President of the United States has no effect on the country because the person in office is replaced within the span of a day every four or eight years.

> the President of the United States has no effect on the country Thats not remotely analogous as the point is about the effects of the magical disappearance of google on humanity. Your analogy wouldnt be how the disappearance of a PotUS would not cripple the US, as that contradicts your view...which I have difficulty grasping.

My point is to not judge an entity's power by what would happen if they didn't exist, but what happens because they exist. Google doesn't act the way it does because there's a universal law dictating a Google-like entity must exist and must act that way. Google is made of people, and all of its actions can be traced to one or more of the people in Google.

Re: On Resigning from Google

#196
post #74

This reads like a moral screed. That's fine. They're entitled to their own views, to voice those views internally, and if they aren't adopted to leave the company and write a polemic. Ultimately, two thirds of their complaints involve taking a position counter to the stated national interest of the United States. Sure, maybe they believe that national interest is wrong, morally objectionable, or whatever, but the inf…

First of all Google affects a lot more than just the USA and while HQed in the USA is in many ways an international company. Secondly, even if you take a US centric view of things, just because someone at the Pentagon claims something is the US best interests doesn't mean it is. People say, "oh we need these dangerous AI based weapons or other countries will win an arms race". Arms races benefit military contractors…

> The USA does not build nuclear weapons anymore, instead it invests heavily in diplomacy to prevent other countries from building nuclear weapons. For some reason, few people seem to consider that we could take the same approach to AI weaponry.

Because it didn't work with nuclear weapons. Just look at North Korea to name the most recent example.

> Yes, wealthy, powerful people at the top ranks of politics and business in this country, who stand to gain more wealth and power via the development of these weapons, support Google developing them. However, your position that since they're the authority figures, anybody who questions them is not an "adult", strikes me as extremely asinine and highly dangerous.

And your reflexive attitude towards "authority figures" strikes me as extremely adolescent.

Extremely intelligent people developing sophisticated technology for military applications is not an inherently bad thing.

> Arms races benefit military contractors but few other people. The 20th century taught us lessons about arms races and we should learn from them.

Indeed, but I don't think you've learned those lessons yourself. During the Second World War, if it weren't for the countless Allied scientists and engineers who designed weapons, broke codes, designed manufacturing processes, invented such things as the Mulberry harbors--the war would have, at minimum, lasted much longer than it did, and may have reached a much worse conclusion than it did.

I agree that evil dictators would probably find some profitable uses for AI technology. That's exactly why evil dictatorships are going to develop that technology anyway, regardless of whether we do or not. Oppenheimer, von Neumann, Feynman, and others refusing to help with the Manhattan Project wouldn't have made a whit of difference to whether or not Heisenberg was going to develop an atomic bomb for the Germans. And if Turing, Browning, Garand, Mitchell, and others refused to build weapons for the Allies, Heisenberg might have had the time and resources necessary to complete that bomb.

Re: On Resigning from Google

#198
Why did it take 15 years for him to have this stance? Could salary, bonuses, 401K, home ownership, vesting, millions made have anything to do with it? I don't counter the arguments being made but the message is disingenuous to me. I ask why 15 years, because I knew Google was evil to a lot of markets, people and businesses well over 10 years ago and I don't even work for them. They have ruined people's livelihoods by simple business as usual decisions and it's nothing new. I wonder how these worker revolutions would hold up in other countries like China? Privileged people on their soapbox don't send the messages they think they do, regardless of the position. The common folk are just trying to survive and feed their kids and aren't exactly fond of the idea of doubling of their gas tax. They don't have millions of Google dollars in the bank.

Re: On Resigning from Google

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also a moderately different can of worms to work on projects like breaking enemy encryption during a war (Turing), building and programming more and more powerful computers to help design nuclear weapons (von Neumann), developing a network protocol for DARPA's national computer network (Cerf and Kahn), building microchips for bombers and missiles (Fairchild Semiconductor), and it goes on from there. Clearly, opt…

I agree. Especially when the nation that would use the drone technology has demonstrated a willingness to use said technology for reckless assassination of other country's citizens without declaration of war.

Well you are free to go live your life under the rule of the Taliban or the Iranian mullahs if you really think they're the good guys in all of this.

Edit: There's a flagged-dead reply that says, "I don't, but I also don't think the Haska Meyna wedding party were the bad guys in all of this." Well, I don't think so either, which is why I think it's good to develop technology that improves the ability to accurately recognize drone targets!

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