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Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

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Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#191

Post by monknomo »

yters wrote: post #139
naravara wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They can know more if they want to Sure they could. They would basically need to set up a modern version of the East India Trading Company, build themselves a mercenary army, and go in there and set up a proxy government that adheres to whatever regulatory policies they want to define. We called that "colonialism" the last time around though, and most of the countries it happened to were not fans.

The problem with colonialism is exploitation of the people, not the setting up of a just government. I'm in favor of Western countries coming in and setting up a just government, even if there is a profit motive involved. It at least is much better than a constant war torn and corrupt environment.

Where would the justice derive from in a government that was set up for the purposes of extracting resources in one area and transferring the resulting resources and wealth to a different area?

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#192

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

throwaway_tech wrote: post #185
SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not endorsing the original comment, but the mines that employ child labor aren’t generally big mechanized operations. They’re what are called “artisanal mines”: holes in the ground where people chip out rocks with hand tools. So you kinda can just pop one up.

Then perhaps the big tech and battery makers are even more culpable for this child exploitation...if its as easy as just digging a hole and chipping out rocks, they could be a little more selective in their suppliers.

I think you're misunderstanding the challenge. Big tech and battery makers don't buy ore straight out of the mine; as you say, they buy from suppliers, who are typically always willing to certify they don't use child labor. Of course that's often a lie. The question is how you, as a purchaser for Google or whatever, can actually catch the lie.

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#193

Post by pgcj_poster »

netcan wrote: post #165
celticmusic wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

taking the stance that the exploitation of children is unacceptable and punishing anyone who does work with those who exploit children is not moral grandstanding.

What do you consider grandstanding?

"Grandstanding" is when someone talks about problems that don't affect me. For instance, if someone says that we should prevent child slavery, that's grandstanding because I'm not a slave. On the other hand, if someone says that whiteboard interviews for engineers are unfair, that's not grandstanding because I'm an engineer.

Also, if I agree with something, then it's free speech and therefore not grandstanding.

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#194

Post by dopamean »

logfromblammo wrote: post #75
dopamean wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And they have third world mining operations.

The hyphen to the rescue! "third-world mining operation": a mining operation that is also a third-world operation. VS "third-world-mining operation": an operation for mining of the third world VS "third-world third-world-mining operation": a third-world operation for mining of the third world VS "first-world third-world-mining operation": a company headquartered in CH that mines in the deep backcountry of the DRC.

lol thank you.

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#195

Post by solidasparagus »

dv_dt wrote: post #158
solidasparagus wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this makes much sense. The mineral supply chain in that part of the world is ridiculously hard to track. Even when you stop buying directly from the DRC, the minerals flow over the borders (see how Rwandan coltan exports jumped when people stopped buying DRC 'conflict' coltan). That part of the DRC is basically beyond the reach of the Congolese government and the bordering countries have been waging pro…

Electronics manufacturers already have all sorts of tracking regulatory infrastructure and certifications for parts going into their BOM. Everything from other conflict materials, to limits on uses for component export/import limits because of trade sanctions, to conventional regulations on uses of materials like lead in solder, to some suppliers who won't supply to military or nuclear uses. The framework is there al…

But efforts to prevent conflict materials from being sold have failed in the past. There's been a focus on coltan before cobalt and it sure seems like the minerals have moved from the DRC to Rwanda (see how Rwanda became the world's leading exporter of coltan after people stopped buying conflict coltan from DRC). Similarly, efforts to stop conflict diamonds and conflict gold have not found much success.

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#196

Post by shantly »

solidasparagus wrote: post #144
yters wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 'someone will do it anyway' defense is not morally legitimate. Just because everyone else is doing it, does not make the action ok. Luke 17:1 Jesus said to his disciples: "Things that cause people to stumble are bound to come, but woe to anyone through whom they come."

I'm not interested in sounding morally superior, I'm interested in actually helping people who need help. And if you want to do that, you need to accept that 'stop buying cobalt' is not currently a solution that has any chance of improving the state of things.

Mandating that companies stop buying cobalt from suppliers who don't document things well is absolutely a legitimate, non-pie-in-the-sky way to effect change.

The idea is that demand for documented cobalt will go up, prices for it will also go up, poorly-documented cobalt producers will have lower demand for their product and their profits will be harmed, the ones capable of fixing their shit so they can sell more-expensive documented cobalt will do so, relieving documented-cobalt supply, and when the dust settles cobalt will be a little more expensive but most of it will be documented.

This is basic policy-building how-to-make-the-world-less-shit using market forces for (old-school) conservatives stuff, and is the backbone of one of the most important & influential strains of political and economic thinking around. It's not remotely radical or unrealistic.

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#197

Post by LifeIsBio »

hnburnsy wrote: post #181

This feels like the episode of the The Good Place where they figure out the point system to get to the good place doesn't work because today's world is complicated... >Michael uses the example of someone buying roses. A man hundreds of years ago got a lot of Good Place points because he grew and picked his own roses to give to his grandmother. However, when another man got roses for his grandmother, he lost points. I…

Incidentally, this is also one of the main points of “21 Lessons for the 21st Century” by Yuval Noah Harari. His argument is that human’s morality is built for interacting with a small tribe of people. You know where your moccasins come from, because the person who made them sleeps at the fire next to yours.

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#199

Post by [deleted] »

yters wrote: post #139
naravara wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They can know more if they want to Sure they could. They would basically need to set up a modern version of the East India Trading Company, build themselves a mercenary army, and go in there and set up a proxy government that adheres to whatever regulatory policies they want to define. We called that "colonialism" the last time around though, and most of the countries it happened to were not fans.

The problem with colonialism is exploitation of the people, not the setting up of a just government. I'm in favor of Western countries coming in and setting up a just government, even if there is a profit motive involved. It at least is much better than a constant war torn and corrupt environment.

[deleted]

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#200

Post by egdod »

WilliamEdward wrote: post #45
egdod wrote: post #41

> The lawsuit accuses those companies of "knowingly benefiting from and aiding and abetting the cruel and brutal use of young children." It has not been tested in court. Might as well sue the end users too, if that's a viable theory.

sue millions of consumers or one company... seems like a hard choice.

My point is that I am dubious about this legal theory.
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