Microsoft 4-day week boosts productivity and sales • Hacker News Board

Re: Microsoft 4-day week boosts productivity and sales

#191

Post by vosper » Mon, Nov 04, 2019, 5:25 PM UTC

bsanr2 wrote: post #158

_hn_throw_away wrote: post #12

(This is a duplicate of a story posted this past weekend. I want to copy my comment from it for greater visibility.) Fuck everything about 5 day work weeks. I'll gladly switch to any job that offers a 4 day work week. It's one of the best perks. As someone with ADHD, work days are entirely spent getting work done. There isn't any extra slack or allotment for personal tasks. They're 100% owned by the employer. Weekend…

Don't sell yourself short. The economy could support everyone working four 8-hour days or five 6-hour days at the same pay (or, rather, with the same median pay, better distributed) as now. Our productivity gains over the past 4 decades prove it. People who want to work more should be able to, but we generally need a massive reevaluation of what work in America is worth, in favor of labor. We're giving up way too muc…

> People who want to work more should be able to, but we generally need a massive reevaluation of what work in America is worth, in favor of labor.

We also need a reevaluation of what work is worth, in terms of self-worth and position in society. We're too far on the side of "you are your job" (and its less-savory friend "your net worth is your worth").

Re: Microsoft 4-day week boosts productivity and sales

#192

Post by Timberwolf » Mon, Nov 04, 2019, 5:26 PM UTC

Something I've noticed about the culture of "work through midnight if that's what it takes" is how much work gets thrown away. I worked at a few places with this culture (startup and established), and it seemed entirely normal for something to be the most urgent thing ever at 9pm and then, "actually, we've decided to approach it differently" the next morning.

I think this is because the impact of an error of commission is low. The worst that happens is people work a bit later, and since they're always working later... well, it's fine to build things that don't need building and have meetings about things that aren't happening. Nobody worries about wasting time because it's just pushing work into a buffer that is treated as infinite. But with limited incentive to select high-value work, it's easy to fall into a trap of working 12+ hour days entirely on low-value stuff.

"Go home on time" cultures are forced to prioritise to be effective. If you know you're going to shut down the laptop with tasks unfinished, you have to make a choice on which tasks you're willing to accept not getting done today. In this situation there is a significant impact of an error of commission, because it means something more important not getting done. IME this results in higher-value work overall, because the organisational instinct tends toward scrutinising everything to see if it's worth doing, not just the things which will take you past 5pm.

I've not been fortunate enough to work somewhere with a 4 day week, only places with generous working hours, but my feeling is it would be a further improvement on this. (Especially since with more free time, people are not going to assign such a high importance to doing their finances, keeping track of Reddit, daydreaming about DIY or any of the other thousands of things people in long-hours cultures do on company time).

Re: Microsoft 4-day week boosts productivity and sales

#193

Post by agent86 » Mon, Nov 04, 2019, 5:27 PM UTC

I think it is good for Microsoft and others to begin experimenting with changing the default work arrangement. This may give them a significant advantage moving forward.

By 2030 all "baby boomers" will be older than 65. These people will need to be cared for on a scale that we have never encountered before.

Companies will need to find a way to continue to conduct business while the workforce contends with caring for the aging population. Work-at-Home, Flex Schedule, and 4 Day Weeks and other things that are currently seen as perks can all become part of a core solution to that problem. Companies can essentially beta the potential solutions as a perk today.

I wouldn't be surprised to see elder care benefits start to appear in company benefit packages as well. Currently parental/birth benefits are a distinguishing factor in HR circles and gaining traction. I expect elder care benefits to take a similar course as caring for the aging population increases in burden.

Re: Microsoft 4-day week boosts productivity and sales

#194

Post by MuffinFlavored » Mon, Nov 04, 2019, 5:27 PM UTC

ciceryadam wrote: post #120

MuffinFlavored wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Dems want European benefits without European taxes levied on the middle class. Could you give a clearer example? Meaning, say somebody makes $40k/yr, $60k/yr, $80k/yr, $100k/yr in America right now, what would their taxes look like if they were at "European" levels?

In general you can check it here: https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=AWCOMP Example from Prague, Czech Republic = an average IT position has it's total cost of employment (part is payed pre-brutto salary from the employer side) at 55k USD, take home pay is at 30k USD a year. - this includes a social insurance (if you are let go, you'll get 750 USD up till 5 months of unemployment, if you go by yourself it'…

$55k gross -> $30k net means you lose 45% of your income ($25k is 45% of $55k)

For comparison, $55k gross is roughly $43.6k net in Florida for a single tax payer before insurance. Figure $200/mo for insurance (with employer paying the rest), that leaves you at $41.2k net

That's $11.2k/yr more than Prague taxes. What would I be gaining by paying $11.2k/yr more?

https://smartasset.com/taxes/florida-paycheck-calculator#sGj...

Re: Microsoft 4-day week boosts productivity and sales

#195

Post by dang » Mon, Nov 04, 2019, 5:29 PM UTC

_hn_throw_away wrote: post #12

(This is a duplicate of a story posted this past weekend. I want to copy my comment from it for greater visibility.) Fuck everything about 5 day work weeks. I'll gladly switch to any job that offers a 4 day work week. It's one of the best perks. As someone with ADHD, work days are entirely spent getting work done. There isn't any extra slack or allotment for personal tasks. They're 100% owned by the employer. Weekend…

Please don't copy/paste comments on HN. Threads are supposed to be conversations. In conversation, people don't play recordings of previous conversations.

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...

Re: Microsoft 4-day week boosts productivity and sales

#196

Post by anon9001 » Mon, Nov 04, 2019, 5:30 PM UTC

samvher wrote: post #187

Miner49er wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you take a normal job you're submitting yourself to a tyranny. The only true power you have is the ability to quit, but depending on your circumstance, you may not even have that (seems most people don't). Plus, you quit and you'll just have to find a different tyranny. That's how it is for most people anyway. Sure there's other options like starting a business or whatever, but those are restrictive in their own…

Consuming more vs working less is totally within an individual's control though. Current productivity is amazing, even with a relatively average salary (let's say $50k) it's completely possible to spend only a third to half of that if you don't have children. That means for every week you work you get 1-2 weeks of life with no work responsibilities. You'll have to choose that though, it means you adjust the location…

I think you're wrong.

I make a typical SF software engineer salary and I live in a low cost of living area. The reality is that I still need about $3M to permanently stop working. Healthcare is expensive and the dollars that I'm making now will be worth much less later in life, even when prudently invested.

I'll probably be able to achieve independence by 40 or 45 instead of 55 or 65 because I have a low CoL and won't have kids. I'm very much looking forward to the freedom I'll have purchased for myself, but it's still an absurdly long time to wait to start living.

Until then, it's more pills and more work.

I have no idea how people manage to live fulfilling lives while still working 40+ hours a week, but I sure can't do it.

Re: Microsoft 4-day week boosts productivity and sales

#197

Post by riffraff » Mon, Nov 04, 2019, 5:30 PM UTC

me_me_me wrote: post #9

MuffinFlavored wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s the same reason why most big corps oppose a national healthcare system in the US: it keeps people locked in to their current positions and has the knock-on effect of putting downward pressure on wages and turnover expenses. Is this... true?

One thing that has always came true throughout my life is a phrase: "If you don't know why, its money." Why there is no national healthcare - money, someone makes a ton of it by preventing nationalization of healthcare system. Everything that doesn't make sense, has better alternatives (somehow not adopted) always boils down to money :(

I am not saying the general idea is wrong, and probably it is true in the US. But.

You could equivalently say "why is there national healthcare almost everywhere in Europe" and answer "money", reversing your point.

Re: Microsoft 4-day week boosts productivity and sales

#198

Post by post_below » Mon, Nov 04, 2019, 5:31 PM UTC

ryanmercer wrote: post #110

hellllllllooo wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really, you can't understand it? You've never had to work long hours at an unfulfilling, repetitive job you hate just to pay the bills and survive without being able to save anything? You're lucky, a lot of people in the US are not so lucky.

>Really, you can't understand it? You've never had to work long hours at an unfulfilling, I've literally dug graves for a living. I've thrown trucks for a living in 90F heat in 80%+ humidity. I've worked 40 hours for a company and 40-50 hours a week for myself trying to get ahead some. I've been working since I was 12 years old just to help make ends meet. Sitting at a desk doing 'unfulfilling, repetitive' work is th…

That makes sense, I can see why you appreciate your current job.

Why does that mean other people should feel the same way you do?

Re: Microsoft 4-day week boosts productivity and sales

#199

Post by edanm » Mon, Nov 04, 2019, 5:32 PM UTC

LeifCarrotson wrote: post #111

ryanmercer wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don't want to spend most of my life working. I feel like a slave I've never understood this line of thinking. Providing for yourself is being a contributing member of the species, work is a means of providing for yourself. For all of human history you've either had to get up every day and go be productive bringing resources in or you had to depend upon someone else to do it for you. I see this "working is slavery"…

I am overwhelmingly more productive and valuable now as a specialized, highly educated, experienced engineer than I would have been as a subsistence farmer. As a result of my efforts and the efforts of the rest of society, I have a much higher standard of living. However, I can't truly pick when I want to work. There are no jobs in my area that pay 80% of my current rate for the same task done 4 days a week. If a job…

> If a job was truly an even exchange of value between employer and employee, I would expect to see some people working 7 days a week and making 40% more than me, and some people working 3 day weeks and making 40% less.

Why? There are plenty of concentration effects that go against this; e.g. it's better for everyone to work the same hours for communication reasons.

Re: Microsoft 4-day week boosts productivity and sales

#200

Post by hervature » Mon, Nov 04, 2019, 5:33 PM UTC

bernierocks wrote: post #166

treyfitty wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know plenty of non unicorn startup founders that don’t work overtime, and they net about $1Mm per year. Sure, not a path to billionaire status, but not too shabby either.

That doesn't sound like a startup. It sounds like they are running a lifestyle business, which isn't a bad thing. Startups, by definition, try to scale up quickly..which means lots of money (investors) and lots of time (overtime and long hours).

Show me a definition of startup from a reputable source that claims that scaling up quickly is a requirement. All companies start off by being a startup [0]

[0] - https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/startup.asp