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The benefits of a more asynchronous workplace

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Re: The benefits of a more asynchronous workplace

#191

Post by BeetleB »

k__ wrote: post #127
BeetleB wrote: post #124

This is amusing. Not long ago I was in a thread about how to do remote work well and the top complaint amongst remote workers was "not responding quickly to IM" ( between remote workers). And the general sentiment was the expectation to respond quickly is greater in remote work. That alone made me not want to take remote jobs. At my current work place, my IM status says that whoever IM's me should not expect a respon…

I worked with both types of people. Funny thing is, when I am a freelancer, who gets paid much more money per hour than an employee, people valued my time and would send me mails or text messages and wait hours or days for an answer,. When I was an remote employee, people paid me less and called me three times before 10am. Somehow, many employers have the perception to own every minute their employees are awake. I wo…

> Somehow, many employers have the perception to own every minute their employees are awake.

The disconnect is that their expectations are higher for remote than on-site. If I go for a short walk, and my boss comes to my cube and doesn't see me there, he assumes I went for a walk, or to the cafeteria, or whatever. He'll just try again or send me an email asking me to drop by once I'm back. It's not a problem.

But what I've heard from remote employees: If their manager tries to ping them and don't get a response, then it's "OMG these remote workers slack off too much!"

Re: The benefits of a more asynchronous workplace

#192

Post by dashscript »

commandlinefan wrote: post #147
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #2

I tried sharing these studies at my ex employers in Europe hoping they'd spare me the hellish 40 minute commute in stop/start traffic and they weren't interested at all. Management there only values "butt time in seats" and the ability to come over and interrupt you by tapping you on the shoulder whenever they need something. As one of my ex CEOs put it: "If I don't see my employees stressing out at thier desks I get…

Remember, we live in a corporate culture where people who have offices with doors that close praise the “collaboration” of the open office that the rest of us serfs suffer under. You’re dreaming if you think productivity is actually the goal: power is the goal (their power over you). If you manage to produce anything in spite of management’s best efforts to thwart you, that’s entirely accidental.

> power is the goal (their power over you)

working remotely gives too much power to workers because interviewing elsewhere becomes so inexpensive. In fact I'd argue most remote devs that are not already at the top of their potential compensation/status (say, someone working in the linux kernel team) are interviewing constantly. Most companies not aiming for top tallent are better off taking on contractors than remote full time developers.

Re: The benefits of a more asynchronous workplace

#193

Post by taurath »

thrownaway954 wrote: post #58
nabdab wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a valid concern. If you don’t have transparency into ongoing work, then you aren’t ready for remote workers. If the only method for your manager to know what people are working on is to tap people on shoulders, then doing that isn’t a “bad behavior” for the manager, it’s necessary behavior. Of cause a better solution is to have trust and plans. (Agile, scrum, waterfall, napkin sketches or whatever it doesn’t mat…

My manager _constantly_ will shout out, "does anyone know what X is working on?" It pisses me off to high hell that a manager has to ask his workers what another worker is working on. I honestly think that EVERYONE should be using a ticket tracking system and just put assignments in a person's queue. I don't see why this is such a big deal or looked down upon. It's so easy to see what everyone is working on, run repo…

All you need is a 10 minute standup to solve that problem every day. You can even do it async and have people post it on slack or something. If people aren't saying it in enough detail, then ask for more detail.

Re: The benefits of a more asynchronous workplace

#194

Post by SketchySeaBeast »

umvi wrote: post #190
VonGuard wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminds me of an old adage about tech work and other skilled labors: If you give me a task that takes a normal perosn 8 hours, and I finish it in 30 minutes, you're paying me for the skill, knowledge and experience that allows me to do it in 30 minutes. I do not owe you another 7.5 hours of work. I owe you the job being done, not the hours it should take to do it.

> I do not owe you another 7.5 hours of work. Only if you are a contractor and you've fulfilled your contract. If you are a salaried employee I expect you to keep your hopper of tasks full so you aren't sitting around idle 95% of the day waiting for me to feed you 30 minute taskers

Why? As a salaried employee you're literally paying me for my ability to get work done, not for my hourly output. If the goal is to keep me busy for X number of hours a day, instead of getting a job done whatever it requires, why am I salaried?

Re: The benefits of a more asynchronous workplace

#195

Post by umvi »

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #194
umvi wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I do not owe you another 7.5 hours of work. Only if you are a contractor and you've fulfilled your contract. If you are a salaried employee I expect you to keep your hopper of tasks full so you aren't sitting around idle 95% of the day waiting for me to feed you 30 minute taskers

Why? As a salaried employee you're literally paying me for my ability to get work done, not for my hourly output. If the goal is to keep me busy for X number of hours a day, instead of getting a job done whatever it requires, why am I salaried?

> If the goal is to keep me busy for X number of hours a day, instead of getting a job done whatever it requires, why am I salaried?

The "goal" in a lot of cases is nebulous (i.e. "keep developing the product", "improve stability", etc). There might not be a manager feeding you tasks every time you run out. At least in my company, you are expected to figure out on your own how to continually make the product better and proactively do it, not sit around idle after rapidly finishing the last task your manager gave you.

If you are just a dumb worker that can only work when your manager fills your queue, you are not valuable to me as a salaried employee (you are more valuable as a contractor who I can call upon for a one-off difficult task that you can then complete in 30 minutes).

Re: The benefits of a more asynchronous workplace

#196

Post by diminoten »

BeetleB wrote: post #177
diminoten wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it possible your approach to instant messaging is wrong?

Article is espousing the benefits of asynchronous communication. If the expectation is that I respond within a minute or so, then it is synchronous. Can you suggest a better way to use IM that doesn't require me to respond quickly? I'm fine with IM for sending over quick URL's, etc while doing a live debug or something. But if you just have a "quick question", email me if not urgent or come to my cube if it is. If yo…

"Sure, let me get back to you later."

Re: The benefits of a more asynchronous workplace

#197

Post by davidjnelson »

fizx wrote: post #144
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #2

I tried sharing these studies at my ex employers in Europe hoping they'd spare me the hellish 40 minute commute in stop/start traffic and they weren't interested at all. Management there only values "butt time in seats" and the ability to come over and interrupt you by tapping you on the shoulder whenever they need something. As one of my ex CEOs put it: "If I don't see my employees stressing out at thier desks I get…

As someone who has gone to the dark side, there's an interesting tradeoff here. There's basically three scenarios: (1) all employees are trusted and unmeasured, but you have to tap people on the shoulder every once in a while to confirm that they're on track. Naturally, this is easier if everyone is on-site. (2) everyone is accountable for producing of tickets, and you can check that everyone is at least doing some w…

2 seems to work well. Keep people updated as you go. It’s compassionate - managers have a lot on their plate, give them an assist.

Re: The benefits of a more asynchronous workplace

#198

Post by xyzzy_plugh »

VonGuard wrote: post #186
fizx wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who has gone to the dark side, there's an interesting tradeoff here. There's basically three scenarios: (1) all employees are trusted and unmeasured, but you have to tap people on the shoulder every once in a while to confirm that they're on track. Naturally, this is easier if everyone is on-site. (2) everyone is accountable for producing of tickets, and you can check that everyone is at least doing some w…

Reminds me of an old adage about tech work and other skilled labors: If you give me a task that takes a normal perosn 8 hours, and I finish it in 30 minutes, you're paying me for the skill, knowledge and experience that allows me to do it in 30 minutes. I do not owe you another 7.5 hours of work. I owe you the job being done, not the hours it should take to do it.

This is only true if you're getting paid the equivalent of a normal person working 8 hours.

Most tech workers get paid a bit more than that.

Re: The benefits of a more asynchronous workplace

#199

Post by JDiculous »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #2

I tried sharing these studies at my ex employers in Europe hoping they'd spare me the hellish 40 minute commute in stop/start traffic and they weren't interested at all. Management there only values "butt time in seats" and the ability to come over and interrupt you by tapping you on the shoulder whenever they need something. As one of my ex CEOs put it: "If I don't see my employees stressing out at thier desks I get…

If there's anything I've learned working office jobs at corporations, it's that you can't change the culture around "butt in seats" management because it's almost like one of the core identities of the leadership. There's always a non-technical C-level executive at the top who values "butt in seats" management, and remote work isn't one of those things that anybody will speak out to defend, particularly against the superior(s) at the top of the food hierarchy.

It's kind of like how legalizing prostitution makes way more sense especially for the sex workers, but nobody ever talks of legalizing it because nobody wants to be the guy to bring it up or challenge the status quo.

Just leave and get a job at any remote-friendly company. The grass is really greener.

Re: The benefits of a more asynchronous workplace

#200

Post by SketchySeaBeast »

umvi wrote: post #195
SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? As a salaried employee you're literally paying me for my ability to get work done, not for my hourly output. If the goal is to keep me busy for X number of hours a day, instead of getting a job done whatever it requires, why am I salaried?

> If the goal is to keep me busy for X number of hours a day, instead of getting a job done whatever it requires, why am I salaried? The "goal" in a lot of cases is nebulous (i.e. "keep developing the product", "improve stability", etc). There might not be a manager feeding you tasks every time you run out. At least in my company, you are expected to figure out on your own how to continually make the product better a…

So you're not trusting the salaried employee to use their judgement on how best to utilize their time, but instead assuming they instead use their skill to be a butt in a seat and working for at least 40 hours? What's special about the salary then? It's just easier than an hourly system?
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