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How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

nytimes.com

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Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#191

Post by tombrossman »

Fnoord wrote: post #143
tombrossman wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The advantage to using Google Play is that apps containing ads are clearly labelled as such. Apple won't tell you this in advance. (This was my biggest surprise, recently switching from Android after the CopperheadOS meltdown)

Honestly I care less about ads and more about trackers. Google Play says nada about trackers. Exodus project (and therefore F-Droid) does. If you come from CopperheadOS I can recommend /e/ or LineageOS + microG (/e/ also contains microG). microG does not implement GAds. You will still need to block trackers though.

I agree with you about the trackers, but I just assume ads=tracking. I cannot see any app marketplace saying their apps contain tracking in the main description (it's always buried in the fine print).

My understanding is that GrapheneOS[0] is the successor to CopperheadOS, and I think that's what I'll try next. There isn't an Exodus Privacy or F-Droid for iOS and these are sorely missed.

[0]https://grapheneos.org/

Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#192

Post by gothroach »

gumby wrote: post #76
gcatalfamo wrote: post #3

Can I go a little off-topic and comment how really well done this webpage is? Very mobile optimized and nice the “scroll to discover” kind of behavior. Haven’t noticed how long NYT has been doing this kind of stuff but very well done.

Interesting: I feel precisely the opposite: reading text is incredibly efficient and having to mess around to uncover the content is distracting and annoying. I'm not trying to say "you're right, I'm wrong", or the opposite: different strokes and all that. I found your excitement about the design quite interesting.

I'm in the same boat as you, but in addition I was having trouble with scrolling up and down messing up their presentation.

Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#193

Post by mwnivek »

esmi wrote: post #181
pier25 wrote: post #125

It's fine, it's their App Store and they can do whatever they want IMO. What's not fine is not being able to install a third party App Store with different policies so that users can choose whatever they prefer.

Just out of curiosity, how do you imagine that would work in the real world? Apple's main thing is security, and one important aspect of how they achieve it is by only allowing signed code, which Apple also does some basic tests on, to be installed on the device. Many think this is a valuable service. In the third party App Store scenario, does the developer still submit an app to Apple for approval? How does Apple t…

Apple seems to balance security and freedom in MacOS, by asking if you are sure you want to uninstall unidentified software, outside of the Mac App Store [1]. Why can't they offer that same balance in iOS? Imagine how different the MacOS experience would be (particularly for small developers) if every piece of software had to be installed through the Mac App Store.

[1] https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/open-a-mac-app-from...

Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#194

Post by zaroth »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #168
zaroth wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can it possibly be an anti-trust issue for a minority player in a competitive market to choose which products to display in their own retail store? This is markedly different then, for example, Google altering search results to promote their own products, because Google owns something like 90% of Search.

I don't agree with this notion that you can't engage in anticompetitive behavior without 80%+ marketshare. Imagine a world where Apple continues to clamp down on 3rd party services that compete with their own offerings, like Spotify. Apple could completely ban Spotify from selling subscriptions outside the App Store, and raise their fee to 70%. Google, wanting to push their own Google Play Music service, eventually a…

The Venn diagram of things that you are capable of doing, and things that are legal to do, changes when you either are or are not a monopoly.

Offering rebates for using your product and not using someone else’s, for example, may be illegal if you are a monopoly but not illegal if you are not.

There are innumerable things a given company could do that harms its competition. Up to a point, that’s kinda the whole idea! It doesn’t become illegal unless it is done by leveraging a monopoly market position.

Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#195

Post by Wowfunhappy »

zaroth wrote: post #194
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree with this notion that you can't engage in anticompetitive behavior without 80%+ marketshare. Imagine a world where Apple continues to clamp down on 3rd party services that compete with their own offerings, like Spotify. Apple could completely ban Spotify from selling subscriptions outside the App Store, and raise their fee to 70%. Google, wanting to push their own Google Play Music service, eventually a…

The Venn diagram of things that you are capable of doing, and things that are legal to do, changes when you either are or are not a monopoly. Offering rebates for using your product and not using someone else’s, for example, may be illegal if you are a monopoly but not illegal if you are not. There are innumerable things a given company could do that harms its competition. Up to a point, that’s kinda the whole idea!…

I'm arguing the law (or our interpretation of it?) should be stricter than it currently is, in light of how much power modern technology gives platform holders, and the situation I outlined above.

Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#196

Post by zaroth »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #195
zaroth wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Venn diagram of things that you are capable of doing, and things that are legal to do, changes when you either are or are not a monopoly. Offering rebates for using your product and not using someone else’s, for example, may be illegal if you are a monopoly but not illegal if you are not. There are innumerable things a given company could do that harms its competition. Up to a point, that’s kinda the whole idea!…

I'm arguing the law (or our interpretation of it?) should be stricter than it currently is, in light of how much power modern technology gives platform holders, and the situation I outlined above.

I think as long as Apple does not have a monopoly, history has shown us that competition will take care of this.

If Apple clamps down on 3rd party apps to the point where it is no longer serving its user-base, the user base has many good alternatives, and Apple would lose business.

I think the Spotify example is a good one; if Apple kicked off Spotify, there could be millions of people switching to Android just because of that. Apple might love the idea that only Apple Music should exist on their iPhone (in fact they was kinda Steve’s original vision) but they can’t get away with it specifically because they would be clobbered by the competition if they tried.

Even as (if) Apple’s reputation shifts away from “walled garden that protects you from junk and malware and spyware” toward “overlord trying to control what you can buy” this causes some users to leave.

As long as there’s viable competitors, I’d rather let users vote with their wallets. This is actually the best way to give people the choice of which system you would prefer using. If the fully open system is preferred by most users then most users will choose that product. But because there are actually huge trade-offs and very hard unsolved problems with a fully open system, it’s important to provide consumers both options.

Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#197

Post by esmi »

mwnivek wrote: post #193
esmi wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just out of curiosity, how do you imagine that would work in the real world? Apple's main thing is security, and one important aspect of how they achieve it is by only allowing signed code, which Apple also does some basic tests on, to be installed on the device. Many think this is a valuable service. In the third party App Store scenario, does the developer still submit an app to Apple for approval? How does Apple t…

Apple seems to balance security and freedom in MacOS, by asking if you are sure you want to uninstall unidentified software, outside of the Mac App Store [1]. Why can't they offer that same balance in iOS? Imagine how different the MacOS experience would be (particularly for small developers) if every piece of software had to be installed through the Mac App Store. [1] https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/open-a-…

I think the security expectations for those two platforms are very different, and that's why Apple balances them differently.

MacOS gives up a lot of security for those extra abilities, and on MacOS I don't feel like I ever really had security. For example, I begrudgingly run shell injection attacks on myself every time I download some large codebase, which I am never going to review all of, or run brew, etc. It has been that way since the very beginning. Not so with iOS.

Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#198

Post by esmi »

fortran77 wrote: post #108
yoz-y wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "in May 2018" If you search for podcast now you see an ad, then apple podcasts, then a story about creating podcasts, then apps. In my case I have Spotify on 3rd place after 2 popular local radio apps. The article conveniently omits a history chart for 'podcast' search to push their agenda.

Thanks. I was going with what the NY Times told me! :-)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20852880

:)

Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#199

Post by gamblor956 »

coldtea wrote: post #164
gamblor956 wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your analogy doesn't work either. An iOS app/ticket/whatever wouldn't work/get you into the other "stadiums." Ergo, the market for the iOS thing does not include those other "stadiums." Repeated for emphasis: it's irrelevant that there are other mobile app stores, because you can't sell iOS apps on them. The antitrust issues are related to Apple's actions within the iOS app market. Authorities can and do segment mark…

> Repeated for emphasis: it's irrelevant that there are other mobile app stores, because you can't sell iOS apps on them. Repeated for emphasis: it's irrelevant that you can't sell iOS apps on them. Selling iOS apps is not a basic human right, nor a market right. As long as you can still sell apps, there's no judge who cares if you can specifically sell iOS apps. You can't sell your physical products at Costco either…

For the authorities it's not just a meaningful distinction, it's the basis of their antitrust investigations, namely that Apple is engaging in anticompetitive practices in the iOS app market.

Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#200

Post by nismoskyz »

coldtea wrote: post #29
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #14

I'm not saying this isn't a problem, but it seems pretty minor compared to the fact that: 1) Apple's apps come preinstalled on every iPhone. 2) Apple's apps have permission to do things that 3rd party apps cannot. If I search for "Web Browser" on the App Store... well, technically I'll get results from third parties, but every single one is just a UI skin around Apple's own browser. That strikes me as a much larger p…

> Apple's apps come preinstalled on every iPhone. Whose apps should have come preinstalled on iPhones? Samsungs? No apps, let the user install everything from scratch? The whole value proposition from Apple is that you get something that "Just works". It might have issues and bugs, like everything has, but the idea behind "just works" => is more or less ready, no fiddling required for the regular Joe.

Agree with this wholeheartedly. What's considered "basic functionality" should be present on the phone.

Pixel 3 lacks a basic pre-installed app which iOS includes: Voice Notes/Recorder. Scouring the Play store for a simple functionality like this seems silly, and it made me appreciate that Apple's pre-installed kit includes this staple feature.

Scrolling a dozen entries to find an alternate Podcast app, however. That's a joke.

While the pre-installed option is a convenience, it should be much easier to find an alternative, when desired.

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