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Why doesn’t anyone weep for Docker?

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Re: Why doesn’t anyone weep for Docker?

#191

Post by StavrosK »

moksly wrote: post #46
paule89 wrote: post #15

The problem i have with cubernetes is the following: I as a small developer and small server owner don't have the ressources to even get started. The first thing i see at cubernetes is a cluster. Why a cluster. Do i need to cluster my Raspberry pi's to get something out of it? Do i need to buy 3 servers just to run 5 containers? In docker its easy. Download Docker. Start container. Install container manager like plat…

> as a small developer Do you need kubernetes? I know the hype cycle is mad for copying big tech, but if stackoverflow can operate on a couple of IIS instances I’d argue that you almost never need kubernetes.

I don't need Kubernetes, no. But what do I use? What's there to automatically deploy my software when I push in a simple and reliable way? All the other stuff I can do myself, but I want something to deploy stuff to servers.

Re: Why doesn’t anyone weep for Docker?

#192

Post by choward »

windsurfer wrote: post #166

The first and only experience I had with Docker as a company was requiring me to sign up to download their mac osx client. They seem to have since changed that policy but it really made me resent them, and made them feel pretty unfriendly.

Are you sure they changed it? https://github.com/docker/docker.github.io/issues/6910

Re: Why doesn’t anyone weep for Docker?

#193

Post by StreamBright »

peterwwillis wrote: post #147
dsr_ wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. None of the things you mentioned are DevOps. DevOps is two things: 1. Applying the methods of modern software development (version control, automation, DSLs...) to operations (provisioning, config, deployment, monitoring, backups...). 2. Reducing silo barriers between devs and ops groups so that everyone is working together as a team, rather than blaming each other for poor communication and the resulting messe…

Just some minor clarifications: - DevOps is a peer with Agile and Lean. Scrum and XP are Agile implementations. Scrum doesn't prescribe ways to code, XP does. - 90% of what people develop or run today should be in containers, and not because containers are great, but because of the DevOps patterns of IaC, immutability, reproducibility, homogeneous environments. Whether you run them on your laptop, a VPC, AWS Fargate,…

>> 90% of what people develop or run today should be in containers, and not because containers are great, but because of the DevOps patterns of IaC, immutability, reproducibility, homogeneous environments

Sorry but no. Container is __a__ way of achieving a small part of what you are talking about but not the only way.

Break it down:

- IaC: how do you containerise a load balancer? Terraform gives you infrastructure as code without containers.

- immutability: VMs, AMIs are immutable just like containers are (discounting the entropy that happens in every OS)

- reproducibility: Same, VMs, AMI, Terraform, Ansible all give your that

- homogeneous environments: Not sure what you mean by that, your Cisco or Juniper firewalls are not running in Docker so I am pretty sure you already have "heterogenous" environment if you meant that by what you wrote

I absolutely disagree this approach that we need containers for the reasons you just mentioned.

Re: Why doesn’t anyone weep for Docker?

#194

Post by olalonde »

kuschku wrote: post #81
Dowwie wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kubernetes seems to be intended for large, complex environments but yours seems to not meet that category. What have you gained by using it?

(Not OP) I'm running a single node kubernetes cluster because it provides much needed isolation between services as well as, and that's the biggest part, a aingle and simple way to have everything in one place. I can duplicate a service I'm running 1:1 with a new version for testing in 2 minutes, I can tear it down in 2 seconds. I can roll back changes in one command, I can wipe the server and reinstall everything fr…

What did you use to create the single node "cluster"? I was using k8s for a similar purpose but had to create 3 nodes at the time (>2 years ago).

Re: Why doesn’t anyone weep for Docker?

#195

Post by jiveturkey »

roryrjb wrote: post #77
dasyatidprime wrote: post #18

Maybe this isn't quite the perspective the article's taking—but damn near no one visibly wept for LXC when Docker stomped all over it in terms of “what people think containers just Are”. And now the news asks why I don't weep for them? Live by the stomp, die by the stomp.

I weep for Solaris Zones and FreeBSD Jails. Granted I don't really have much experience of them, I do have some experience of containers on Linux via Docker but also in constructing a minimal container runtime in C (not OCI compatible or anything), but my point is there was a lot of work in this area before Docker and especially in the case of Zones, freely available today in illumos distributions, are completely ove…

As do I. Solaris in general and Zones in particular are so much better. There just wasn't an ecosystem around it. Solaris was too late to make the shift to open source. It might not matter; had they done so "in time" it might have killed them anyway!

Re: Why doesn’t anyone weep for Docker?

#196

Post by quixoticaxolotl »

mumblemumble wrote: post #178
Someone wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would surprise me if Linus even knew about Solaris when he worked on the first release of Linux. Solaris’ first release was in June 1992, with first use of the name in marketing materials in September 1991 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solaris_(operating_system)#His... ) Linus’ famous message was from the same time (September 17, 1991) Calling Linux an open source version of Minix is more appropriate, but it sti…

I think that, once you're going that far back in history, it's pretty critical to keep track of the GNU/Linux distinction. Linus just wrote a kernel. And then the GNU userland, which had already been in development since the mid 80s, but was still somewhat lacking a workable kernel, was adopted as the official userland to use with the Linux kernel. And at roughly the same time, IIRC, when Sun decided to migrate their…

Is this Richard Stallman? ;)

Re: Why doesn’t anyone weep for Docker?

#197

Post by StreamBright »

orthoxerox wrote: post #176
psv1 wrote: post #73

Can anyone offer a good guide to DevOps for people who don't directly use these tools but work with engineers who do and would like to learn more? The whole ecosystem of servers, cloud infrastructure (and all of the different offerings there), Docker, Kubernetes, CICD tools etc is a bit overwhelming to get into.

What most enterprises think is DevOps is different from what dsr_ wrote. They have admins that maintain their pool of servers. They have developers that are fluent in the stack of their application. They decide they need to have some of that cloud, containers, CI/CD stuff. Turns out they need people who can write code that builds their programs, tests their programs, packages their programs, provisions cloud infrastr…

>> What most enterprises think

You mean the companies we regularly fail every aspect of engineering?

dsr_ summed up pretty well how Amazon and a bunch of companies think abut DevOps. Coincidentally these companies produce the highest grade of software, tools, services etc.

>> Most of their admins say they are not programmers, so it's not their job.

What you are describing is the 90s approach to IT. These companies disappear really fast. IT is changing just like agriculture was changing long time ago. Toffler talks about this in The Third Wave.

Old approach: lets do everything by hand New approach: automate most of the things you can

>> In an unjust world, you end up with three silos. Programmers say their code compiles on their machine, admins say they have installed the new server, devops frantically try to build some pipeline that deploys that code on that server.

I migrated countless companies from 90s approach to CI/CD world, they never looked back. You just think that because there are late adopters this world is going to exist indefinitely. I do not think so.

Re: Why doesn’t anyone weep for Docker?

#198

Post by PeterisP »

goatinaboat wrote: post #48
raesene9 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you be allowing devs to directly deploy to production in a company with 30,000 developers? Surely you'd have proper release management where Ops teams would review deployment artifacts before deploying them?

You wouldn’t but you wouldn’t give every dev root access to every dev box either... would you?

Not necessarily every dev box, but I'd say that in most environments it's reasonable that devs would have full permissions in any "their" dev boxes/VMs. If you split boxes/VMs across devs instead of sharing them, then the access would be limited to whatever people are assigned to own that box, but they'd have full access. I mean, if something breaks, it should be trivial to reset that machine or get a new one, VMs can be cloned and spawned in seconds and there's no reason not to spend an hour once so that you automatically get a fully working dev environment with all the tooling needed.

In any case the notion of "the root password" seems weird, root passwords should be unique (even for VMs), randomly generated, and mostly not used; in most situations you'd use publickey authentication instead of passwords.

Re: Why doesn’t anyone weep for Docker?

#199

Post by parliament32 »

StavrosK wrote: post #191
moksly wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> as a small developer Do you need kubernetes? I know the hype cycle is mad for copying big tech, but if stackoverflow can operate on a couple of IIS instances I’d argue that you almost never need kubernetes.

I don't need Kubernetes, no. But what do I use? What's there to automatically deploy my software when I push in a simple and reliable way? All the other stuff I can do myself, but I want something to deploy stuff to servers.

"git checkout X && git pull" ?

Re: Why doesn’t anyone weep for Docker?

#200

Post by StavrosK »

parliament32 wrote: post #199
StavrosK wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't need Kubernetes, no. But what do I use? What's there to automatically deploy my software when I push in a simple and reliable way? All the other stuff I can do myself, but I want something to deploy stuff to servers.

"git checkout X && git pull" ?

If I wanted to bring production down I'd just rm -rf / the database machines instead of using half-measures like that.
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