Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China • Hacker News Board

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#191

Post by sarabande » Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 6:28 PM UTC

hangonhn wrote: post #79

ta20190717 wrote: post #22

Does anyone know the technical details of what Google would have needed to comply with in China? From my understanding, a lot of western companies do business in China via (51% local controlled) "Partners" that ostensibly run their infrastructure for them, and obviously have to abide by local regulation. This includes operating an "Information Security Management System" (a euphemism of a sort) that interfaces with t…

I don't know the nuances of the new ownership laws but the 51% rule no longer applies. The Tesla gigafactory in China is wholly owned by Tesla. These protective measure is unnecessary now that China has grown so much economically.

The 51% rule does apply for certain industries (here is the PDF: https://www.set-up-company.com/uploads/file/negative-list-fo... an informative guide is here: https://www.set-up-company.com/the-ultimate-guide-for-china-... and I would start there.

A WFOE = Wholly Foreign-Owned Enterprise is allowed for manufacturing (which I assume Tesla regulates under), but not for Telecom companies where 51% still applies. Internet services seem even worse based on a cursory reading:

    (42) No foreign investor is allowed to invest in Internet news services, Internet publishing services, Internet audio-visual program services, Internet culture operation (except music), Internet access service establishments, and services of information release to the public through Internet (except those under China's commitment to opening up to the outside world in its entry into the WTO).

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#192

Post by jcytong » Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 6:29 PM UTC

khc wrote: post #86

As an overseas Chinese (born and grew up in Hong Kong but have relatives in China) I am sadden by this and HN comments. Any claim that Google would have helped China censor Chinese citizens ignores the fact that Chinese search engines are already censored. Because laws in this area are often vague, I can see that dragonfly would apply varying levels of censorships and as a side effect, allow people to access some inf…

I hear you since I have a similar background (born and grew up in HK). I really wish that the Chinese people can benefit from better services (search, social media) and also the people in the west can benefit from some the the innovation in China.

Though I find that as a company, this is a slippery slope that it's better not to get on in the first place.

Can Google enter China and slowly affect change? Possibly

But from the track record of China and especially what's happening in Hong Kong, cooperating seems to be just feeding the beast. There needs to be genuine interest in opening up and making a change. So far, I do not see that but perhaps one day we can get there.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#193

Post by unholythree » Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 6:29 PM UTC

dirtyid wrote: post #175

inferiorhuman wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could. Do you know that's the case? China allows a lot of foreign investments and to think that the only reason is to further their censorship is silly. And to think that Google would never submit to Chinese censorship in earnest is naive. Yahoo![1], Google, Microsoft, Cisco, AOL, Skype, and Nortel all willingly partook in aiding the censorship apparatus. Yahoo! even went so far as to out journalists and politic…

The question is not whether they would do the same - but whether they would the practice to other regions. Did Microsoft, Cisco, AOL, Skype, and Nortel?

Cisco's been accused of have assisted China in identifing members of Falun Gong.

The first news story I came a across searching (it seems fairly unbiased): https://m.sfgate.com/technology/dotcommentary/article/Cisco-...

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#194

Post by themacguffinman » Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 6:31 PM UTC

HALtheWise wrote: post #108

kyrra wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the arguments at the time when dragonfly was leaked, it was brought up that there is censorship, though in a different form, already in the EU. Be it right to be forgotten, or filtering of information related to things unsavory to the past of any given country in the EU. Then the US and EU both have censorship around things protected by law. So you can sue people to take down slanderous material, or material tha…

You're getting a lot of flack for this comment, but I think it's a reasonable way of looking at the problem. In the United States, we have strong cultural conceptions about what are acceptable reasons for the government and companies to forcably suppress information (copyright violations, "terrorist" content, white supremacy, child pornography) and what aren't (political dissidence, social stability, insults, most ot…

Copyright and patent enforcement does not suppress information, they suppress specific actions on information. You are required to publish information before it can be patented or copyrighted, the information must be available for the public to view. You cannot compare copyright to censorship, it is practically the opposite of censorship as it's designed to encourage creators to publish information.

Even when copyrights are abused to attempt censorship, US copyright law specifically defines Fair Use as an exemption to protect valuable speech.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#195

Post by bduerst » Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 6:32 PM UTC

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #177

bduerst wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Some of the criticism of the censorship also shows a underlying lack of understanding how search engines works. The Chinese firewall blocks the websites, not the search engines. What was Google supposed to to? Show links to dead sites that don't load in the browser?

> What was Google supposed to to? Show links to dead sites that don't load in the browser? All other operational problems aside: Yes, I think that would be great! Let users know what their government is censoring.

The purpose of a search engine is to give results wanted for the user query - showing a dead website probably isn't want the user wants.

Google already handles this with DMCA takedowns in the US. If you search a website that has been removed by DMCA, Google will notify you at the bottom of the screen. Telling the user that N number results are hidden because of censorship is probably a better approach.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#196

Post by CodiePetersen » Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 6:32 PM UTC

hakka-nyu-su wrote: post #156

CodiePetersen wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think better and worse are subjective. But the thought reconditioning camps, the concentration camps for the Muslims, and the forced propaganda app are in my opinion pretty bad.

Which "forced propaganda app" do you refer to: the Xi Jinping quotation study app that voluntary members of the Communist Party use to demonstrate promotability? https://www.scmp.com/tech/apps-social/article/2186037/chinas...

"Party cadres across the country are now required to use the app every day and accumulate their scores, according to recent state media reports."

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#197

Post by friedman23 » Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 6:33 PM UTC

chocolatebunny wrote: post #168

TearsInTheRain wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a weak argument. The base response to a repressive totalitarian regime is non-cooperation, not support them and hope they will be marginally less oppressive. Any support legitimizes their actions and further entrenches their oppression

Isn't that the kind of policy that creates places like North Korea? And we're already heavily tied to china's economy why would forcing just one company to not cooperate help deligitimize their government?

US government policy didn't create North Korea. In fact the Chinese government had a huge hand in that.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#198

Post by friedman23 » Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 6:36 PM UTC

ezoe wrote: post #98

peteretep wrote: post #41

To me, this feels like an area Uncle Sam and the EU need to get involved in. Declare all censorship or need to comply with the Great Firewall to be a trade barrier, freeze out all Chinese tech companies on that basis, and find a way to strongly discourage American and European companies from in any way enabling it.

Both US and EU exercise censorship in the name of: + copyrights + trademarks + patents(really bogus patents) + religion(these days, US outright ban any casual religious reference because it offend some believers, resulting modifying some manga/anime/game) + national security + ex-political party symbol(swastika, but they can't tell the difference between nazi symbol and Buddism symbol which is widely used in Japanese…

>+ religion(these days, US outright ban any casual religious reference because it offend some believers, resulting modifying some manga/anime/game)

this isn't done

>+ child porno(their definition includes some commercial Japanese manga/anime/game which we believe not possibly be a child porn since it's a pure fiction and no real-life human being harmed).

are you actually arguing in favor of not censoring this?

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#199

Post by Wowfunhappy » Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 6:37 PM UTC

bduerst wrote: post #195

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What was Google supposed to to? Show links to dead sites that don't load in the browser? All other operational problems aside: Yes, I think that would be great! Let users know what their government is censoring.

The purpose of a search engine is to give results wanted for the user query - showing a dead website probably isn't want the user wants. Google already handles this with DMCA takedowns in the US. If you search a website that has been removed by DMCA, Google will notify you at the bottom of the screen. Telling the user that N number results are hidden because of censorship is probably a better approach.

No, it's probably not what the user wants in that moment, but it's what they should see.

And under some circumstances, it may quite literally be the most helpful result. If someone searches for Tiananmen Square, what they really need is a hint that it's time to switch to a VPN.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#200

Post by dirtyid » Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 6:37 PM UTC

miles wrote: post #182

dirtyid wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>bullied international airlines Airlines only remove Taiwanese paraphernalia when flights operates in China - you know complying to domestic Chinese laws. That's completely reasonable stuff that doesn't extend beyond Chinese borders. Has Bing exported censorship back to the West. Has EU right to be forgotten even made it's way to US and Canada? This is just fear mongering.

>> Just look at how the CCP bullied international airlines about Taiwan > Airlines only remove Taiwanese paraphernalia when flights operates in China - you know complying to domestic Chinese laws. That's completely reasonable stuff that doesn't extend beyond Chinese borders. Three biggest US airlines bow to China Taiwan demand as deadline passes https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-44948599 Giving In to China, U…

"Of course we hope that when they operate in China they respect China's laws and rules, China's sovereignty and territorial integrity and the feelings of the Chinese people."

>Three biggest US airlines bow to China Taiwan demand as deadline passes

That was interim solution, if you check AA / United / Delta, they removed references of "China" for Chinese/Taiwanese cities name altogether. Also asking companies to conform to UN recognized sovereign states as bullying is pretty silly.