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Libra, 2 Weeks In

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Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#191

Post by the_seraphim »

seventhtiger wrote: post #151
School-Cotton wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If Libra launches successfully and remains stable, those same places selling X MB of data for cash, could easily start selling Libra too. Why couldn’t they sell prepaid Visa cards, or Venmo/PayPal (or whatever is the local equivalent) top-ups? I get that having access to brokers that will sell a globally recognized hard currency for local cash is super useful, especially if it’s in electronic form. I don’t get why…

Selling prepaid visas misses the point. The issue is not that those in poverty in developing nations can't spend their money. The issue is that they can't receive my money. It's more important that I can buy a lot of Libra and hire them, and they can cash out or use it directly.

This, there's no safe way to send cash to 3rd world countries... bitcoin has no KYC policies.

I can see a benefit to using Libra for this.

Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#192

Post by kenny_r »

roel_v wrote: post #184
H8crilA wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to defend them, but this is exactly what happens to all non cash transactions. Which you kind of have to do to with any sizeable quantity of money (say over 100k) for practical reasons, like theft.

"all non cash transactions. Which you kind of have to do to with any sizeable quantity of money (say over 100k)" Sort of related, in the Netherlands, we will soon (2 years or so) have a ban on cash transaction of more than 3000 euros. Not to one-up, just saying that it's happening. To be fair, I contribute to this by doing pretty much all payments electronically. Just like I contribute to local bookstores disappearin…

The same €3000 limit for cash transactions has already been implemented in Belgium, France has an even stricter limit of €1000.

Starting in January, the ECB will stop the distribution of the €500 bill.

We're nearing the death of cash.

Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#193

Post by raverbashing »

Lucadg wrote: post #127

This is the part where they reveal how they plan to negotiate with regulators: "At the core, we believe that a network that helps move more cash transactions — where a lot of illicit activities happen — to a digital network that features regulated on and off ramps with proper know-your-customer (KYC) practices, combined with the ability for law enforcement and regulators to conduct their own analysis of on-chain acti…

Hey remember how the press has been pushing for total control of money and transactions? Under the guise of fighting money laundry?

This is what you get. How do you like the "deprecation of cash" now?

Don't worry, the million/billionaires will still put their money on real estate or other places where there are convenient exceptions for it, make no mistake.

Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#194

Post by teekert »

benj111 wrote: post #183
dirktheman wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shoddy translation from Dutch, but he probably means that you can link any of your Bunq bank accounts to any of the Bunq banking cards you have.

Interesting thanks. So presumably you link to your beer money account on a night out, expenses account on a work trip, etc, etc, but its all on one physical card.

Sorry for the Dunglish :) Exactly that, we usually use my pass when going out, I couple it to the "beer" account and send everyone a payment request, or just my bunq.me page (like https://bunq.me/freekvh (try adding an amount to the url and then a word and see the page change dynamically, i.e. https://bunq.me/freekvh/10.15/beer_money) and they can fill the beer account (iDeal is the instant payment method in the Netherlands). I set another pin code on the fly for the pass or even choose 2 pin codes to access different accounts with each. But usually one pays "contactless" in the Netherlands.

For work I do the same, create a dedicated account and after a trip I can easily export an overview to get the money back from the company.

In the Netherlands one pays with Maestro cards but for international travel I can couple a (debit) MasterCard, or the new TravelCard which is a real credit MasterCard but backed by your own money. bunq does not do debt.

Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#195

Post by asymmetric »

democracy wrote: post #170
spaced-out wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are millions of people around the world that are unbanked. Especially in 3rd world countries, they get on the internet by buying the cheapest possible smartphone and data with cash. I was just in the Philippines, and I saw places selling access to only Facebook and WhatsApp, in increments of 30MB of data, for cash. The problem for Facebook is that these people can't buy anything online, because they don't have…

The fact that they don't have a "bank account" in a traditional sense doesn't mean that they can't do what they want to do - transfer money to each other and make purchases using other means. The "bank the unbanked" idea that crypto-shills like so much only works for people who know nothing about these "3rd world countries".

Are you thinking of systems like hawala?

Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#196

Post by jillesvangurp »

shitgoose wrote: post #74

the moment libra is exchanged for fiat, it is under scrutiny (know your client etc). fbi routinely nails various e-gold enterprises, where clients exchange fiat for tokens and freely transact tokens across the globe. all it takes is to open a couple of libra accounts and send a transaction with "hurt as many americans as possible" in the details. a lot of people were busted for a lot less than that. imagine high volu…

The FBI has no jurisdiction outside the US and you are right that cash is more safe to use for buying cocaine, ordering hit men, buying child pornography, etc. Libra is probably not going to be popular for that sort of thing. The irony of a distributed ledger is that it actually makes enforcement a lot easier. Facebook will simply point to the ledger and tell the FBI that "everything you need to know is public information". FB is also uniquely positioned to facilitate all the required KYC and AML processes.

The reason governments are worried about Libra is not his but the fact that people might choose to no longer exchange for fiat. If you are transacting and earning Libra, why would you swap for dollars/euros and pay the transaction fees for that? This is a much bigger concern for governments than the black market economy.

Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#197

Post by gridlockd »

Lucadg wrote: post #127

This is the part where they reveal how they plan to negotiate with regulators: "At the core, we believe that a network that helps move more cash transactions — where a lot of illicit activities happen — to a digital network that features regulated on and off ramps with proper know-your-customer (KYC) practices, combined with the ability for law enforcement and regulators to conduct their own analysis of on-chain acti…

This is exactly how all cryptocurrencies already are allowed to operate. Any domestic crypto exchange has to do KYC, but also cooperate with the IRS. With most cryptocurrencies, transactions are public and traceable.

Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#198

Post by wickoff »

gerikson wrote: post #176
wickoff wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Check out FX charts for Russian Ruble, Argentinian Peso, Turkish Lyra or even the British Pound. Then ask yourself which of these countries have financial institutions that allow their clients to seamlessly transact in more stable currencies like US dollar or Euro and you have your answer.

These countries can simply ask Facebook/Calibra to not offer their wallet, or to require FB to disable the wallet functionality. Or they can ban Facebook.

Have you read the linked article? The protocol is open, anybody can build a wallet and transact p2p without KYC with a pseudonymous account. If they get the initial market penetration through WhatsApp/Facebook then it'll be as difficult to ban as Bitcoin. Facebook alone wouldn't have the means to stop those transactions even if they wanted to, this is not PayPal.

Considering that most of those have countries have trouble enforcing the most basic tax laws, I'd like to see them try banning digital money that can be transferred over encrypted channels.

Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#199

Post by richrichardsson »

School-Cotton wrote: post #114
spaced-out wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are millions of people around the world that are unbanked. Especially in 3rd world countries, they get on the internet by buying the cheapest possible smartphone and data with cash. I was just in the Philippines, and I saw places selling access to only Facebook and WhatsApp, in increments of 30MB of data, for cash. The problem for Facebook is that these people can't buy anything online, because they don't have…

> If Libra launches successfully and remains stable, those same places selling X MB of data for cash, could easily start selling Libra too. Why couldn’t they sell prepaid Visa cards, or Venmo/PayPal (or whatever is the local equivalent) top-ups? I get that having access to brokers that will sell a globally recognized hard currency for local cash is super useful, especially if it’s in electronic form. I don’t get why…

I tried using a pre-paid card to buy something online a few years back: it didn't work, was specifically declined for being a pre-paid card (I don't recall what it was I was trying to purchase, but perhaps that may have some bearing on why it was declined if the reason was they don't want to sell certain things to potentially anonymous persons).

Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#200

Post by pjc50 »

wickoff wrote: post #175
IAmGraydon wrote: post #83

I'm asking this in all seriousness. Why would anyone want to use Libra? Let's say a consumer wants to buy something. They can either pay with "normal" money in one step or they can use their phone to convert their money into Libra and then make the purchase with Libra. Why would they go through the extra step(s)? Am I to believe that the benefit is "lower transaction fees"? Because if so, Libra doesn't have a chance.…

Check out FX charts for Russian Ruble, Argentinian Peso, Turkish Lyra or even the British Pound. Then ask yourself which of these countries have financial institutions that allow their clients to seamlessly transact in more stable currencies like US dollar or Euro and you have your answer.

I don't follow this line of argument? I already keep my investments in a UK tax-sheltered savings account invested in US securities, and my credit and debit cards work for buying things in dollars, but most of my spending is in GBP. I could have a Euro-denominated bank account if I wanted. How much more "seamless" would I want?
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