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0x Launch Kit – Launch your own cryptocurrency exchange or marketplace

0x.org

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Re: 0x Launch Kit – Launch your own cryptocurrency exchange or marketplace

#191

Post by arcticbull »

rickycook wrote: post #181
arcticbull wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I don’t think micro transactions have a future - peer to peer or otherwise - but not for any technical reasons. Humans suffer from decision fatigue [1] wherein making decisions just wears you out and you don’t want to do it regardless of size. A decision requires a costly, difficult evaluation of worth regardless. That’s why even though buying shows one at a time on iTunes would likely save you money, you pay for…

Flattr is micro-payments, and is fantastic! AWS became successful party because of the "micropayments for servers" style hourly model. Micropayments are most certainly a limitation of the current financial system: Pulling together all the disparate banks of the world to cooperate to create a global API to facilitate payment for <$1 amounts? Don't assume that all problems are technical: This would be near impossible,…

> Flattr is micro-payments, and is fantastic!

Flattr isn't micropayments. You as a reader pay a decidedly non-micro amount into a pool monthly that's then divided between flattr sites based on apportioned viewership on a monthly basis. This is the Netflix model, and exactly what I suggested. This is accounting, not micropayments. Neither the viewer nor the content creators ever transact sub-penny amounts, they only exist in the context of calculation and apportionment. And they do this specifically because people don't want to make individual purchasing decisions.

> AWS became successful party because of the "micropayments for servers" style hourly model.

Again, that's accounting, or more accurately, metered billing. A low price for services is not micropayments either.

> Micropayments are most certainly a limitation of the current financial system: Pulling together all the disparate banks of the world to cooperate to create a global API to facilitate payment for If this were something people wanted, you'd load up a, for instance, PayPal account and drain it pennies at a time. Once an aggregate payout to a specific merchant exceeded the transactable threshold it would execute automatically. This can be done today. People just don't want it.

Re: 0x Launch Kit – Launch your own cryptocurrency exchange or marketplace

#192

Post by arcticbull »

chrisco255 wrote: post #174
arcticbull wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some do, but some like Square will pay you out next business day free of charge or instantly for a small surcharge. To your point they’re floating that during settlement. It’s instant in the sense that the transaction is approved instantly and the settlement is a formality.

Settlement is not a formality. Money still has to change hands behind the scenes in various bank accounts. The only thing that's instant is the check for available funds. The actual transfer of money still occurs via ACH.

Within the US, ACH is being superseded by RTP realtime payments. SEPA is realtime in Europe. It's a formality from the perspective of the customer because the payment 'happens' immediately, and the merchant gets paid out within 24 hours, sooner if they really need it. Is this really a problem?

Re: 0x Launch Kit – Launch your own cryptocurrency exchange or marketplace

#193

Post by lojack »

arcticbull wrote: post #147
lojack wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about real time cross border remittance and settlement? Current fiat approaches require large illiquid reserves, are slow, and not very scalable. It’s also useful for transmitting money long distances when banks won’t do business and you want to avoid a paper trail (drugs). Fiat is perfectly fine for in person transactions, but not when distance is involved. You may or may not morally agree with it, but this is a…

> How about real time cross border remittance and settlement? Current fiat approaches require large illiquid reserves, are slow, and not very scalable. It's bad for that, we've been through this. To send money you have to pay ~1% to an exchange in your home country, wait a few days for it to clear exposing yourself to huge forex risk, pay a $1 transaction fee give or take, then pay ~1% to an exchange in your destinat…

You've done a good job explaining how to do foreign exchange and how you can personally buy things in other countries. What happens if you're an international business that uses Bank of Melborne and has to pay vendors in Croatia using Primorska Banka? How does actual money get sent? Not credit that can be settled at a later date. Real money, sometimes large amounts that needs to be settled. A forex market is absolutely going to be necessary to do this, and as you pointed out those are very liquid markets which helps. A forex is only one piece of the puzzle though. You somehow need to get money out of Bank of Melborne and into the forex market. Then you somehow need to get the money out of the forex market and into Primorska Banka.

I get it, you want to play devils advocate, but every example you gave solves a problem that isn't "real time cross border remittance and settlement". They either aren't cross border (Venmo/Square Cash), or don't actually result in settlement (TransferWise, Norbert's Gambit), or aren't realtime (Interactive Brokers takes 3 days to settle your account FWIW).

Re: 0x Launch Kit – Launch your own cryptocurrency exchange or marketplace

#194

Post by rickycook »

arcticbull wrote: post #190
rickycook wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you sold one of your TODO notes for $170,000 frankly I think that'd be a fair judgement to make. Other than the fact that people spend stupid money on stupid things [1], I'm not sure what your point is > You know you can do that with a database right? Literally, a database Yes, and this is a generic solution that applies to any kind of asset, and then software like 0x can plug in to trade said assets. Generic ca…

> It has nothing to do with trusting the government, or driving a car. It has to do with transferring ownership information of an asset with intrinsic value between 2 parties, ensuring payment without relying on (possibly expensive) escrow The government is the entity that recognizes the change of ownership, it's not something you can do without their approval. Your change of ownership is being filed with the governm…

And yet again you've missed the point... So I don't understand how the ownership and transfer of ownership of vehicles works in the US (where, BTW, I do not live, and have no need to understand).

Let me say it again so it's really obvious:

It has to do with transferring ownership information of an asset with intrinsic value.

Stop arguing the specifics of the admittedly flawed example that I came up with between starting to type, and ending typing the sentence.

Re: 0x Launch Kit – Launch your own cryptocurrency exchange or marketplace

#195

Post by rickycook »

arcticbull wrote: post #191
rickycook wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flattr is micro-payments, and is fantastic! AWS became successful party because of the "micropayments for servers" style hourly model. Micropayments are most certainly a limitation of the current financial system: Pulling together all the disparate banks of the world to cooperate to create a global API to facilitate payment for <$1 amounts? Don't assume that all problems are technical: This would be near impossible,…

> Flattr is micro-payments, and is fantastic! Flattr isn't micropayments. You as a reader pay a decidedly non-micro amount into a pool monthly that's then divided between flattr sites based on apportioned viewership on a monthly basis. This is the Netflix model, and exactly what I suggested. This is accounting, not micropayments. Neither the viewer nor the content creators ever transact sub-penny amounts, they only e…

And it only works like that because of the current financial system. Flattr exists because of the lack of a solution in the current financial system: Cryptocurrency (eg ETH with Web3) would allow sites to build a Flattr-like system without the middleman, and cut down on the overhead of actually building a company around it.

Re: 0x Launch Kit – Launch your own cryptocurrency exchange or marketplace

#196

Post by arcticbull »

rickycook wrote: post #195
arcticbull wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Flattr is micro-payments, and is fantastic! Flattr isn't micropayments. You as a reader pay a decidedly non-micro amount into a pool monthly that's then divided between flattr sites based on apportioned viewership on a monthly basis. This is the Netflix model, and exactly what I suggested. This is accounting, not micropayments. Neither the viewer nor the content creators ever transact sub-penny amounts, they only e…

And it only works like that because of the current financial system. Flattr exists because of the lack of a solution in the current financial system: Cryptocurrency (eg ETH with Web3) would allow sites to build a Flattr-like system without the middleman, and cut down on the overhead of actually building a company around it.

People don't want that. You're describing a solution in search of a problem. We have the technology to execute on this right now but nobody does, because people don't want it. If they wanted it, we'd have it, and we'd be iterating in the problem domain not the solution domain. There's no pent up demand for a world in which you're constantly forced to make tons of individual purchasing decisions.

More importantly though, people have learned not to value content. This is a huge problem for the media industry. Nobody wants to pay anything at all for what they create, they want to pay with their time and attention - through ads.

Re: 0x Launch Kit – Launch your own cryptocurrency exchange or marketplace

#197

Post by arcticbull »

sumshetty wrote: post #175
arcticbull wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You bring up an interesting point in that I can’t think of another technology out there quite as polarizing as crypto. It’s almost fanatical devotion from both sides. I disagree that the points are debunked, I think the current thinking from the pro side is that those are “today’s problems” and the future will be different. I think the anti camp like myself are frustrated by the religious devotion to something that i…

Look at numeraire, nothing on the internet could achieve what numeraire has done, it puts skin in the game for financial predictions. The guys there were able to run a hedge fund out of it. If we go to computing primitive. The internet was formed to distribute information, not sensitive information. There is no protocol on the internet to store, share and process sensitive information like identity data, financial da…

> but I do think there’s value in adding native layers on the internet that enable the exchange of sensitive information.

SSL.

Re: 0x Launch Kit – Launch your own cryptocurrency exchange or marketplace

#198

Post by chrisco255 »

arcticbull wrote: post #192
chrisco255 wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Settlement is not a formality. Money still has to change hands behind the scenes in various bank accounts. The only thing that's instant is the check for available funds. The actual transfer of money still occurs via ACH.

Within the US, ACH is being superseded by RTP realtime payments. SEPA is realtime in Europe. It's a formality from the perspective of the customer because the payment 'happens' immediately, and the merchant gets paid out within 24 hours, sooner if they really need it. Is this really a problem?

It looks like RTP has not been rolled out everywhere yet and that there are some issues: https://www.forbes.com/sites/tomgroenfeldt/2019/01/22/the-cl...

But still, definitely a promising improvement over ACH.

It is a practical problem that the merchant has to wait 24-48 hrs for funds. It's a cash flow problem. It slows down the speed at which that cash can be used to purchase other goods or services. For example, a made-to-order business has to wait for funds to clear from a customer (or front the capital) before they can turn around and order goods to produce the product a customer is purchasing. Which slows down delivery. And that effect is amplified across the whole supply chain.

Re: 0x Launch Kit – Launch your own cryptocurrency exchange or marketplace

#199

Post by arcticbull »

rickycook wrote: post #194
arcticbull wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It has nothing to do with trusting the government, or driving a car. It has to do with transferring ownership information of an asset with intrinsic value between 2 parties, ensuring payment without relying on (possibly expensive) escrow The government is the entity that recognizes the change of ownership, it's not something you can do without their approval. Your change of ownership is being filed with the governm…

And yet again you've missed the point... So I don't understand how the ownership and transfer of ownership of vehicles works in the US (where, BTW, I do not live, and have no need to understand). Let me say it again so it's really obvious: It has to do with transferring ownership information of an asset with intrinsic value. Stop arguing the specifics of the admittedly flawed example that I came up with between start…

I respect that may have been a poor example, but I think you’re missing my point, which is that the information on the blockchain isn’t relevant if it’s not in sync with state off the blockchain, doubly so when not backed by law.

Ok your car is registered on the blockchain and you fail to pay your bills. Now it belongs to your lender. Well, the blockchain says one thing but the lenders tow truck says another. So what good is it? Blockchain technology does not address this critical component which is the faith that reality reflects the consensus on chain.

The reason the only thing that has any traction at all is cryptocurrency is that the entire concept is encapsulated on chain. The second the chain becomes a record of the real world it falls over because the world won’t change to reflect the blockchain and the blockchain won’t change to reflect the world. Only cryptocurrencies have intrinsic value captured on chain, and I am being generous when I say value.

Re: 0x Launch Kit – Launch your own cryptocurrency exchange or marketplace

#200

Post by Legogris »

CryptoPunk wrote: post #98
Legogris wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Capabilities to enforce regulatory compliance on permissionless chains is coming. You could, say, have zero-knowledge proofs in smart contracts that enforce that tokens representing security X can only be transferred if the receiving account has performed KYC and confirmed as an accredited investor in jurisdiction X, Y or Z, without leaking any PIIs that went Intl the verification. Or more trivially, TPL for account…

I sincerely hope permissionless solutions make such permissioned solutions obsolete. There are people, who by accident of their place of birth, are not permitted to use permissioned financial systems.

Yes. What many of the well-intentioned people (many with libertarian/cypherpunk/anarchist ideals) in the blockchain space are building now might become enablers of the perfect control system.

Zero-knowledge proofs or RingCTs? Great, require disclosure and reporting of proofs or view keys to the man, who will enforce it for all interacting parties.

"You can't enforce bans on running nodes"? Well, start enforcing strict control of the public IP space so everyone address has a responsible individual behind it and put severe penalties on unlicensed crypto/privacy enabled assets/what have you.

I am thinking more and more we need to seriously consider moving the web to something like I2P or Freenet before it's too late.

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