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Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

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Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#191
post #59

This seems like it could also torpedo their Contractor vs. Employee argument. Contractors get to set rates, employees don't. So you can't say they're contractors AND accuse them of committing fraud when they try to set their own rates. Now if only someone would develop an app that does this for entire cities. The app could be their version of a union.

Under the theory that Uber/Lyft employees are contractors and allowed to set prices, wouldn't coordinating ("conspiring") to do so en masse be considered price fixing? Personally I think they should be considered employees, but a pro-management federal prosecutor could make some trouble for them.

I think you can make an argument that it’s bid rigging. Uber/Lyft pricing can be viewed as an auction where the surge price is the market clearing price. Conspiring with others to not accept bids below a floor could probably be prosecuted as a bid rigging conspiracy.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#192
post #59

This seems like it could also torpedo their Contractor vs. Employee argument. Contractors get to set rates, employees don't. So you can't say they're contractors AND accuse them of committing fraud when they try to set their own rates. Now if only someone would develop an app that does this for entire cities. The app could be their version of a union.

Under the theory that Uber/Lyft employees are contractors and allowed to set prices, wouldn't coordinating ("conspiring") to do so en masse be considered price fixing? Personally I think they should be considered employees, but a pro-management federal prosecutor could make some trouble for them.

Is it considered price-fixing if a union that works mostly contracts (e.g. electricians) sets a labor price? This seems to be a standard practice.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Under the theory that Uber/Lyft employees are contractors and allowed to set prices, wouldn't coordinating ("conspiring") to do so en masse be considered price fixing? Personally I think they should be considered employees, but a pro-management federal prosecutor could make some trouble for them.

That's an interesting question. I'm not a lawyer, but I'd be interested in the answer. From a technical perspective it seems that they'd need significantly more control over product liquidity generally , rather than locally , for it to apply; from a moral perspective it doesn't seem like a reasonable appellation at all and that the closest equivalent is labor organization--and it's worth noting that companies are not…

Note that unions are specifically exempt from antitrust laws. So just because some conduct would be legal if a union did it doesn’t mean it’s legal without an actual union in place.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#195
I’ve always been fascinated by the way Uber has implemented their market dynamics using surge pricing. Uber isn’t a market for rides in the way that, say, a stock exchange is a market for stocks. There aren’t drivers setting their asking price and riders making bids, nor is there an order book where matches are made at a clearing price, and understandably so - I can’t imagine how to build a comprehensible UX around a “true” bid-ask marketplace.

Instead, Uber presumably has historic estimates of the supply and demand curves at different locations, different times of the week, different passenger / rider populations (business travelers or tourists?) and then uses the measured “true” supply and demand to find a clearing price, and therefore decide whether or not a market is going to surge.

The UX of surge is important too - the raison d’être of surge pricing is to bring more drivers to an undersupplied market. That means that when you detect a supply or demand shock that would lead to surge pricing, you want to increase the surge as quickly as possible to send out the “we need more drivers” signal, because there’s a latency in getting more supply (drivers have to relocate). Conversely, Uber doesn’t want to drop the surge price too quickly - they want downward movement to be sticky - because you don’t want to tell drivers “there’s more money to be made over here” just to renege on that promise before the supply can even get there.

So if surge is sticky on the way down, these drivers may have found a way to exploit the pricing algorithm - simulate a price shock then reap the rewards. If surge were not sticky on the way down, this strategy might be much less effective - a few drivers would get better fares, but the market would return to equilibrium faster.

None of this is to say that you can’t have cartel behavior in a “bid-ask”-style market too, but I suspect this is a “hack” of Uber’s pricing UX as much as anything else.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#196

The only economic model that make Uber and Lyft make sense is if drivers are willing to take low pay (considering all their other costs). If they make more money than cab drivers, the whole model falls apart, because then cabs will be cheaper and the service won't be competitive. (Granted, the lack of having to pay for medallions saves them a bunch of money) I think the only long-term business plan that makes sense f…

Keep in mind that uber was successful early on not because of price, but because it was significantly more reliable then a cab. I was willing to pay a bit more then a cab to get to the airport because I knew I could count on that uber to arrive at my house on time. Uber and Lyft are not trying to be cost competitive with cabs; they are trying to be cost competitive with public transit.

I'm still convinced that the only innovation that ever happened in this space by Uber was the guaranteed ride. They chose to fight (ok, ignore) the taxi regulations, but from a features perspective the taxi apps already did all this. The difference was that any random person off the street could still flag your cab so in practice you rarely got a taxi if you weren't in a "hot spot". Reliability matters.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#197
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I dont see how Lyft gets off calling this fraudulent. The workers are "defrauding" Capital out of greater-than-substance wages. It's bullshit, and they'll try to re-frame in in terms of customers, but that's essentially their view.

Well, Lyft drivers are supposed to be contractors, it's normal for contractors to set their rate so I don't see how this is fraudulent.

Contractors can set rates. They cannot make agreements with other contractors to not accept jobs for below a certain rate.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#198
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, Lyft drivers are supposed to be contractors, it's normal for contractors to set their rate so I don't see how this is fraudulent.

'ardy42 is presenting the part of the argument that Lyft and Uber can't say aloud but almost certainly believe. Lyft and Uber have a vested interest in making their objection seem "pro-consumer," when they're primarily anti-worker; lower prices to the consumer pumps up the demand curve and Lyft makes more money.

> Lyft and Uber have a vested interest in making their objection seem "pro-consumer," when they're primarily anti-worker;

Given that Lyft and Uber are losing money, there is no difference between the two. Uber and Lyft are just vehicles (hah) for consumers to make taxi drivers work for less than what taxi drivers used to make. People use Lyft and Uber because it’s cheaper than taxis. Since Uber and Lyft don’t make any money, those savings are coming out of the pockets of drivers.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#200
post #59

This seems like it could also torpedo their Contractor vs. Employee argument. Contractors get to set rates, employees don't. So you can't say they're contractors AND accuse them of committing fraud when they try to set their own rates. Now if only someone would develop an app that does this for entire cities. The app could be their version of a union.

Under the theory that Uber/Lyft employees are contractors and allowed to set prices, wouldn't coordinating ("conspiring") to do so en masse be considered price fixing? Personally I think they should be considered employees, but a pro-management federal prosecutor could make some trouble for them.

Why do you think they should be employees?
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