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Biomarker for chronic fatigue syndrome identified

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Re: Biomarker for chronic fatigue syndrome identified

#191
post #122

40 people isn’t a super large sample size. Given there are huge numbers of people who claim to have cfs I would have expected much larger.

This is a poor statement since you leave out important qualifiers that would give it some beef. you can't just auto-post "sample size too low" whenever you don't see a thousand people, you have to go deeper to justify your opinion. This sample size can be way to low or it can be very high, completely depends on the population and what you want to show and with what confidence. Summary here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.g…

Ok, the sample size was 20 cfs, and 20 non cfs.

The problem I have is that the sample size means the there are reasonably good odds that their a significant genetic difference between the two groups.

I am making no claim as to whether it’s real - I’ve known people who say they have it, and to me seems plausible, but I’ve also known people who are just not 20 any more, and have children, who also claim to have it - it seems plausible in the latter case that people have been sold on a message of “eat healthy and you won’t feel age”.

The problem with weak sample sizes is that it has a significant negative impact whether CFS exists or not:

  * if it’s a real disease it could be an incorrect marker - for example let’s say the CFS positive group were all Bostonians living in California. It’s highly likely that a random sample of California natives will have at least some uniform marker. Now people who have the disease, but aren’t from Boston may not have the marker, so are told they’re not sick.

  * the disease doesn’t exist, but you’ve got a marker now. People who happen to have the bogus marker are now diagnosed with something that they don’t have. Now they have a diagnosis that prevents an actual diagnosis of real issues.
So I don’t believe it is justifiable to publish a press release on something that effects millions of people, based on a sample that is so small.

The initial small sample size might justify a larger sized sample looking at specifically that marker. Then you also have better science (you have a “this marker indicates cfs” hypothesis), and more statistical robustness.

Re: Biomarker for chronic fatigue syndrome identified

#192
post #72

Can anyone explain the idea of salt as a cell stressor? > The idea is to stress the samples from both healthy and ill patients using salt, and then compare how each sample affects the flow of the electrical current. Is this an osmotic pressure change that stresses the cytoskeleton or something? Does a cell under a hypertonic solution change its cell membrane channel’s behavior?

They were bumping the Na to 200mOsm/L, which is insanely high compared to our plasma.

Hypertonicity like this causes the cell to shrink, which spoils the delicate relationships and ionic bonds between molecules in the cell. This causes a litany of issues, but one thing is an increase in production of reactive oxygen species, a byproduct of normal metabolism. ROS, otherwise known as free radicals, is what they use to measure cell stress.

Re: Biomarker for chronic fatigue syndrome identified

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Millions of people (in the US alone!) suffer from this illness and I think everyone has wondered, or heard it wondered, if it's imaginary. For all these people to know there's something actually physically wrong with them is massive. IMO the broader issue is the stigma against mental illness. The leading hypothesis remains that chronic fatigue syndrome is a mental illness. Both your comment and the linked article im…

> IMO the broader issue is the stigma against mental illness Yeah yeah that rubbish again. I have mental illness (see my posts for boring details) and I've always been open about it, except when it's so obvious that people pick up on it without my assistance. I've never had a problem. Stop saying there is a stigma. Any stigma may be down much more to the individual's anticipation of stigma which might cause them to n…

I have bipolar disorder. When I was depressed at uni and didn't sit my exams, my mum said "oh, so you couldn't be bothered then?" That's stigma against mental illness.

When my doctor signed me off for 28 days off work and my boss said, "how about taking it day by day? Wouldn't it be better for you to have something to do?" That's stigma against mental illness.

When I have to wait two months to see a consultant psychiatrist, that's stigma against mental illness. I wouldn't have to wait so long to see an oncologist, despite bipolar disorder having a higher chance of killing me quicker than some cancers.

Re: Biomarker for chronic fatigue syndrome identified

#194
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the link. I read the paper and it seems that they just measure the impedance (or resistance) of the cell membrane with an artificial increase of NaCl in the extracellular environment (ie plasma in the text). The final NaCl concentration looks like to be doubled than the normal range. This might be an intersting finding, but I can't figure out why the impdecance of membrane need to be measured with increase…

The salty plasma removes water from inside the cells by osmosis. The authors say that this technique is a common model for studying cellular response to stress.

The thing is if they just want to create a hyperosmotic solution they can add something won't be transported across the membrane, the way they did will change a lot of things on the membrane and inside the cell rather than stress introduced by hyperosmotic stress

Re: Biomarker for chronic fatigue syndrome identified

#195
post #27

Does it say anywhere in the paper what the “promising drug” that decreases the effect might be?

SS31, copaxone and suramin.

Suramin is used for African sleeping sickness. They found that African sleeping sickness closely resembled CFS in terms of gene expression.

Re: Biomarker for chronic fatigue syndrome identified

#196
post #23
post #2

Paper at https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/early/2019/04/24/190127411... Pleasantly surprised to discover that it was legally available! The test appears to be ridiculously good. Perfect separation of 40 subjects into those who have been diagnosed with CFS and those who are known to be healthy, from blood samples. I want to see this replicated, by people who are not the original authors; but if this test is anything…

I’m also very interested in seeing how strong the effect is when tested on mild and moderately ill patients. I hope they follow up with that. (The study group OMF have been using has been 20 severely sick patients, which is a good plate to start.)

From the paper:

Of the 20 ME/CFS patients studied, 5 were severely ill and 15 were moderately affected by their condition

Re: Biomarker for chronic fatigue syndrome identified

#197
post #196
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m also very interested in seeing how strong the effect is when tested on mild and moderately ill patients. I hope they follow up with that. (The study group OMF have been using has been 20 severely sick patients, which is a good plate to start.)

From the paper: Of the 20 ME/CFS patients studied, 5 were severely ill and 15 were moderately affected by their condition

Oh! That’s good news. (I’ve been following the OMFs work for a while now and somewhere along the way I got it into my head they were all severely ill.)

Re: Biomarker for chronic fatigue syndrome identified

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely you'd have to have a lot of vaccines for it to compare to the amount you get from other sources (mostly seafood afaik?)

Yes. One vaccine contains less mercury than one (average) serving of fish, and the mercury is in a less toxic form.

Not even just a "form". Thimerisol is a compound. I like to compare it to saying we shouldn't eat table salt because it contains chlorine.

Now, as to the safety of Thimerisol, obviously that has to be judged on its own merits, but just because a compound "contains" a certain kind of atom, by itself means nothing.

Re: Biomarker for chronic fatigue syndrome identified

#199
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep in mind that CFS is a currently a diagnosis of exclusion - many people labelled with CFS may in fact have another, undiagnosed illness. For example, it's been found that a lot of CFS (and fibromyalgia) patients turn out to have small fiber neuropathy (damage to he nerve fibers that signal pain), and neurotoxins have been shown to cause general fatigue (I'm in mobile, so no references for now I'm afraid). The ski…

I found out last year the root cause of my CFS is life-long mercury toxicity (a well understood neurotoxin). I am responding very positively to treatment. I rarely talk about it because people get very upset when I tell them about the evidence of where the mercury came from.

yeah you have to be careful with the amount of fish you eat these days, the long living predatory ones tend to accumulate a lot over the time in tissues

Re: Biomarker for chronic fatigue syndrome identified

#200
post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yeah, that is pretty much the entire objective of SVMs. Which is hard to do by hand in many dimensions but almost trivial in 2. I haven't read the paper but maybe the OP is complaining about something like that?

Yes, the data is essentially 1-dimensional and looks like "CCC MMMMMMMM". (Seriously, look at Figure 2 graph H in the paper.) It seems entirely gratuitous to use machine learning to build a SVM classifier to separate the C's from the M's, when it's obvious that the C's are on the left and the M's on the right.

Perhaps the use of machine learning helped to acquire funding, or enabled the researchers to acquire skills for future projects.
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