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Tell HN: Archive.is inaccessible via Cloudflare DNS (1.1.1.1)

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Re: Tell HN: Archive.is inaccessible via Cloudflare DNS (1.1.1.1)

#191
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So who should be the arbitrator of truth? You do understand that I can cite many many many many many examples though out history where actual truth was suppressed, actual advancement was suppressed by those in power. Free Speech is the most powerful tool Minorities and oppressed people through out the world have to end their oppression, and you just want to strip it away because of fear... How can you not see how utt…

> So who should be the arbitrator of truth? ... Free Speech is the most powerful tool Generally, an independent judiciary is the arbitrator of truth. Free speech has never been absolute. Free speech does not protect intentionally false speech. For example, tricking people to give you money is fraud. Libel is too. You can support free speech while also protecting truth. When the issue pops up, a judge determines who's…

I can agree with that, in part, what I cant agree with is that CloudFare, Facebook, Twitter, Firefox or any other Tech Company should be in charge of this which is what the OP was asking for.

Almost all of the content the Authoritarian left wants to be banned today the independent judiciary has already ruled many times to be Legal Speech under the US definition of Free Speech

Re: Tell HN: Archive.is inaccessible via Cloudflare DNS (1.1.1.1)

#192
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So who should be the arbitrator of truth? You do understand that I can cite many many many many many examples though out history where actual truth was suppressed, actual advancement was suppressed by those in power. Free Speech is the most powerful tool Minorities and oppressed people through out the world have to end their oppression, and you just want to strip it away because of fear... How can you not see how utt…

I don't have an answer to who should be the arbiter, but: > Free Speech is the most powerful tool Minorities and oppressed people through out the world have to end their oppression, So in order to protect the opressed, we should allow their opressors an equal platform to share their totalitarian views? The other side(what we currently have) is equally as bad, if not worse. Right now you have a situation where the BBC…

>>So in order to protect the opressed, we should allow their opressors an equal platform to share their totalitarian views?

yes, for many reasons. One Should not be celebrating Moving the Cliff of Censorship on the bias of "Dangerous Individuals" like Facebook recently did. [2]

>Free speech isn't a right for you to have a platform to voice your opinion, it's a right to not have your opinion be suppressed by the government.

100% incorrect, Free Speech is a social concept that is often codified into law as through out history governments are the ones that often use the power of censorship to silence dissent, however threats by government is NOT the only threat to free speech.

Free Speech is a cultural value first, it has become a legal articulation based on that cultural value. [2] Platform Access Is A Civil Right, You should now have the same right to speak on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram that you do in a public park.[0]

If you would not celebrate government censoring opinions you dislike why would you celebrate corporations doing it?

>>I don't have a solution, but at some point you have to accept that tolerance of intolerance is intolerance

The US Supreme Court disagrees with you, you can not fight intolerance by suppression. it has never worked in all of history, it only makes the extremism more extreme and violent. One can make the strong case that the more society pushes these people out of the sunlight the more violent they become, and if they allowed the modern public square, where their idea's would be challenged, debated and debunked there is a high probity there would be LESS violence.

Censorship does nothing but drive extremism under ground allowing it to fester, become more extreme, and then you get violence. This is also true for other forms of Censorship. Take for example the recent bills to "stop human trafficking" by censoring platforms and making them liable for it. Did it actually stop any human trafficking... No, all it did was drive it under ground making it harder for law enforcement to track and stop, while suppression lots of legitimate speech, had massive negative effects on voluntary sex workers, and untold other unintended consequences. This censorship was a net negative both in its stated goal, and for freedom in general. It accomplished nothing but taking the rights away from people.

Once your Nation has a "Chief Censor" [1] you know you have gone away from anything that could be considered Free Speech

[0] https://humanevents.com/2019/05/03/platform-access-is-a-civi...

[1] https://youtu.be/QH_IZnKzqKA?t=68

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOwJz1p6aag

Re: Tell HN: Archive.is inaccessible via Cloudflare DNS (1.1.1.1)

#193
post #28

The problem is the archive.is (and other TLDs) server not returning any Good IP if the EDNS client subnet isn't present. Would like to point out that Cloudflare's resolver is EDNS compliant, it just doesn't send the client subnet. See: https://twitter.com/archiveis/status/1018691421182791680 (picture of tweet https://aws1.discourse-cdn.com/cloudflare/optimized/3X/8/2/8... ) Based on that tweet, the owner has a person…

I take back every bad thing I have ever said about mailing lists - at least it was easier to follow the drama than these damn twitter links.

My issue with mailing lists is the browsing experience. It's very difficult to view conversations, especially compared to Gmail's threaded view. Seems like something an open source project could solve!

Re: Tell HN: Archive.is inaccessible via Cloudflare DNS (1.1.1.1)

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The experience for the user is that the page just keeps loading indefinitely, while showing a blank page. Is there nothing Cloudflare could do to inform the browser about the situation, so that the browser can show some kind of a message to the user? As it stands, to the user it just looks like their connection died.

I don't see what they can do, short of sending fake DNS replies with their own webserver IPs, which is worse for the integrity of DNS.

Shouldn’t there be some kind of standard DNS response for this? There are dozens of different HTTP status codes for all kinds of scenarios. Doesn’t DNS have something like that? I know almost nothing about DNS, I’m just curious.

Re: Tell HN: Archive.is inaccessible via Cloudflare DNS (1.1.1.1)

#195
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you may have typo’d, but just in case: 1.1.1.1 does not send EDNS ECS data, specifically because of the privacy concern. So the hypothetical secondary resolver would need to send that data, for people who aren’t concerned about the privacy implications / want to get to archive.is. Given CloudFlare’s stated message of prioritizing privacy, it seems unlikely they’d stand up infrastructure that behaved like 1.1.…

My apologies! I misread the OP and thought that CloudFlare was being accused of violating privacy. Instead, it seems that CloudFlare is definitely making the right choice, and I can't see why archive.is has any objection.

(Also: I only just learned that archive.is != archive.org.)

Re: Tell HN: Archive.is inaccessible via Cloudflare DNS (1.1.1.1)

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see what they can do, short of sending fake DNS replies with their own webserver IPs, which is worse for the integrity of DNS.

Shouldn’t there be some kind of standard DNS response for this? There are dozens of different HTTP status codes for all kinds of scenarios. Doesn’t DNS have something like that? I know almost nothing about DNS, I’m just curious.

The thing is, the server sends a real response, it's just not the same response as it sends to other recursive resolvers.

Imagine it's HTTP, and the site sent a 404 to your proxy, but you knew it generally sent a 200 to other proxies, what should you do? Send the 404, or override it with your own status code? Cloudflare is saying they are not OK with overriding codes.

Re: Tell HN: Archive.is inaccessible via Cloudflare DNS (1.1.1.1)

#197
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So who should be the arbitrator of truth? You do understand that I can cite many many many many many examples though out history where actual truth was suppressed, actual advancement was suppressed by those in power. Free Speech is the most powerful tool Minorities and oppressed people through out the world have to end their oppression, and you just want to strip it away because of fear... How can you not see how utt…

I don't have an answer to who should be the arbiter, but: > Free Speech is the most powerful tool Minorities and oppressed people through out the world have to end their oppression, So in order to protect the opressed, we should allow their opressors an equal platform to share their totalitarian views? The other side(what we currently have) is equally as bad, if not worse. Right now you have a situation where the BBC…

>So in order to protect the opressed, we should allow their opressors an equal platform to share their totalitarian views?

Yes. That's one of the founding principles of America. Cloudflare is a common carrier like a telco, not a hosting provider. The content on websites that use them as a CDN shouldn't be paid attention to by Cloudflare one way or another, as long as it's legal. This is their position, and it's the correct and most moral one. You also seem to be missing the fact that Cloudflare famously banned Daily Stormer; the only time they've ever banned any website: https://blog.cloudflare.com/why-we-terminated-daily-stormer/

The best way to empower extremists is by trying to stamp them out. You can never, ever win when your primary weapon is censorship. Fascism thrives and festers in darkness.

Re: Tell HN: Archive.is inaccessible via Cloudflare DNS (1.1.1.1)

#198

We don’t block archive.is or any other domain via 1.1.1.1. Doing so, we believe, would violate the integrity of DNS and the privacy and security promises we made to our users when we launched the service. Archive.is’s authoritative DNS servers return bad results to 1.1.1.1 when we query them. I’ve proposed we just fix it on our end but our team, quite rightly, said that too would violate the integrity of DNS and the…

If you're for integrity of DNS, why did you suspend the free speech of the admittedly bigoted, hateful neonazis on dailystormer?

https://blog.cloudflare.com/why-we-terminated-daily-stormer/

"Earlier today, Cloudflare terminated the account of the Daily Stormer. We've stopped proxying their traffic and stopped answering DNS requests for their sites. We've taken measures to ensure that they cannot sign up for Cloudflare's services ever again."

I'll keep using non-logging, encrypted OpenNIC servers, since you seem to selectively censor instead of only blocking terrorists and cp.

Re: Tell HN: Archive.is inaccessible via Cloudflare DNS (1.1.1.1)

#199

We don’t block archive.is or any other domain via 1.1.1.1. Doing so, we believe, would violate the integrity of DNS and the privacy and security promises we made to our users when we launched the service. Archive.is’s authoritative DNS servers return bad results to 1.1.1.1 when we query them. I’ve proposed we just fix it on our end but our team, quite rightly, said that too would violate the integrity of DNS and the…

Well no, CloudFlare doesn't get to talk about not "violating the integrity of DNS" after you stopped responding to "any" queries in violation of the standard. You started by doing your own thing and then proposed a change to the standard to fit your business decision. [0] [0] https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8482

They also stopped responding to all DNS queries for some neonazi asshats because of public pressure and politics. They're definitely jerks but they still should be treated like any other customer unless they're actively breaking the law.

Re: Tell HN: Archive.is inaccessible via Cloudflare DNS (1.1.1.1)

#200
post #146
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is amusing, They Banned the DailyStormer which I why I will never support them. While I disagree 100% with the DailyStormer it is not up to cloudflare to decide who can and can not speak, who can and can not access the internet. The concept of Free Speech is the most important right we have as humanity, while I may not agree with some peoples words I will fight for their right to say those words And do not even…

Yes, I want them to censor lies and misleading speech. People or services that feed the public dangerous misinformation should be silenced. I realize that’s a slippery slope, but I just don’t trust the public to filter for themselves any more.

You don't trust the public to filter for themselves but you trust them to elect politicians or judges that will get to filter for you?

The logical extension of your argument is the public not trustworthy enough to even choose their leaders.

Free speech isn't a danger to democracy, thinking like this is.

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