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Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

bloomberg.com

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Re: Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

#191

Post by matz1 »

jpking wrote: post #178
human20190310 wrote: post #25

I'm beginning to suspect that the 996 schedule (and its equivalents in other cultures) aren't actually about productivity; they're about devotion. Devotion isn't something a CEO can explicitly ask for, but a 996 schedule is, so that becomes the expectation even if it actually has a neutral-to-negative impact on productivity. Richard Liu almost made this explicit when he stated that people who didn't adhere to it were…

I don't think that these 12 hour days are full of productivity. My partner spent some time in the summer as a researcher at a key lab in Shanghai. She observed that researchers put in long hours (if the boss was around) but often spent time on their phones and repeated experiments mindlessly. Kai-Fu Lee discusses this culture in the Founders Fund podcast Anatomy of Next. He suggests that many of the workers will be t…

>but often spent time on their phones and repeated experiments mindlessly

For some people this is called breaks.

Yes, you shouldn't do 12 hours full working, you should take sufficient number of breaks in between.

This will fit the 996 system.

Re: Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

#192

Post by Abishek_Muthian »

>Richard Liu, chief executive of Alibaba arch-foe JD.com Inc., said in a recent post on his WeChat moments that, while he would never force staff to work a 996 schedule, people who slacked off were not considered his “brothers.”

Holy cow! People went ballistic when Elon said in his post that the employees should hold up for the sake of the company.

Re: Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

#193

Post by lordlimecat »

volkl48 wrote: post #173
acct1771 wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or a drive thru employee. Or an Uber driver trying to make minimum wage. Hm.

A drive thru employee works a scheduled shift and when it's over they're done. I don't see how that example works with this topic of overtime/overwork.

Every foodservice place I ever worked in my youth got quite irate when someone worked more than 40 hours, because overtime is a lot more expensive than just hiring another worker.

Re: Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

#194

Post by baud147258 »

jimmytucson wrote: post #155
cjw3 wrote: post #18

It’s interesting to compare the Bloomberg article with this one from the South China Morning Post, titled “Alibaba founder Jack Ma says companies forcing staff to work overtime are ‘foolish’”. Two articles reporting on the same statements and drawing completely different conclusions. It’s getting harder to find the truth. [1]: https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3006127/alib...

This is the essence of “fake news”. Most people think fake news is reporting false information. But nowadays it’s relatively easy to fact-check something. Much more onerous is selecting facts to report on so as to tell a story that fits an agenda. It’s harder to recognize, and hey—it’s facts! What could go wrong?

> This is the essence of “fake news”.

No, it's opinions and editorializing. Because if all news that are made to fit an agenda are "fake news", all news would be "fake"

Re: Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

#195

Post by basetop »

cjw3 wrote: post #18

It’s interesting to compare the Bloomberg article with this one from the South China Morning Post, titled “Alibaba founder Jack Ma says companies forcing staff to work overtime are ‘foolish’”. Two articles reporting on the same statements and drawing completely different conclusions. It’s getting harder to find the truth. [1]: https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3006127/alib...

This is why I wish we had a topics based news aggregator. A site which lists topics and under each topic, you get a list of different headlines and sources ( hopefully from different countries and with different perspectives and ideologies ). That way, we can see what different media groups are saying about the same event.

Google news and other social media used to do this until they got pressured to "localize" the news and favor "authoritative" sources.

What is shocking is how the same event is covered so differently by different countries and media groups. But the only way you would know this is if you actively search for news which is getting more difficult and which hardly anyone does.

Re: Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

#196

Post by lazyjones »

stuffedBelly wrote: post #125
lazyjones wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an investor and former VC-backed founder and I'd like my stewards of capital, who are typically the best work force in the early days of startups, to work more than 40 hours. I'm sure that they do in the overwhelming majority of successful startups.

I work in finance and am sorry but you don't sound like a legit investor if you measure the effectiveness of your capital towards startups by work hours. What about their revenue models, plans for growth, talent structure and market niche? Why do you expect them to work longer hours as long as they have deliverables on time? Also, working longer hours may introduce potential compliance/HR costs (mental/physical probl…

> I work in finance and am sorry but you don't sound like a legit investor

I don't care what I sound like to someone who develops software and pretends to be some sort of financial expert.

Re: Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

#197

Post by mywittyname »

mabbo wrote: post #181

I'll work those hours, no problem. You will, however, have to make it worth my while. Oh, what's that? You want to pay me the same total compensation as any other company, but make me spend twice as many hours working? No thank you. I'll seek employment elsewhere.

I agree with you, but I suspect the people in China subjected to these inhumane work hours don't have the option for a job with better working conditions. I would not be surprised in companies were colluding such that the 996 is the default work week.

Re: Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

#198

Post by jpking »

matz1 wrote: post #191
jpking wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that these 12 hour days are full of productivity. My partner spent some time in the summer as a researcher at a key lab in Shanghai. She observed that researchers put in long hours (if the boss was around) but often spent time on their phones and repeated experiments mindlessly. Kai-Fu Lee discusses this culture in the Founders Fund podcast Anatomy of Next. He suggests that many of the workers will be t…

>but often spent time on their phones and repeated experiments mindlessly For some people this is called breaks. Yes, you shouldn't do 12 hours full working, you should take sufficient number of breaks in between. This will fit the 996 system.

You could look at it that way. Hours of time would be spent like this toward the end of the day so why not just go home?

In addition, mindlessly repeating experiments isn't a break.

Re: Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

#199

Post by jpking »

hylaride wrote: post #188
jpking wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that these 12 hour days are full of productivity. My partner spent some time in the summer as a researcher at a key lab in Shanghai. She observed that researchers put in long hours (if the boss was around) but often spent time on their phones and repeated experiments mindlessly. Kai-Fu Lee discusses this culture in the Founders Fund podcast Anatomy of Next. He suggests that many of the workers will be t…

Reminds me of a few business trips I did to Korea about 8 years ago. Loooooong hours, but lots of 'make work' projects and redoing everything because a manager didn't like or approve of some minor subset.

The redoing my partner saw was often because an experiment didn't result in what the researcher expected. Rather than try to figure out what went wrong (or why their expectations were wrong), they'd spend lots of time repeating exactly the same thing.

Re: Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

#200

Post by matz1 »

jpking wrote: post #198
matz1 wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>but often spent time on their phones and repeated experiments mindlessly For some people this is called breaks. Yes, you shouldn't do 12 hours full working, you should take sufficient number of breaks in between. This will fit the 996 system.

You could look at it that way. Hours of time would be spent like this toward the end of the day so why not just go home? In addition, mindlessly repeating experiments isn't a break.

During breaks you can go home as well

What constitutes a breaks of course different for each person. Maybe some prefer go to gym instead or going for coffee, or simply just strolling around.

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