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Sweden Wants to Revive Europe’s Overnight Trains

citylab.com

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Re: Sweden Wants to Revive Europe’s Overnight Trains

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Warsaw on a warm summer evening. The sun is setting and there is a beautiful sky above the equally beautiful city. You relax into you sleeper cabin, and gaze out of the window waiting for the train to depart. 'Such a friendly city. Beautiful country.' you think to yourself. The train pulls out of the station. You watch the countryside pass as the night turns dark. You go to sleep. - You wake up at Gare du Nord. At le…

This sounds like something from '80 days'

I don't know, I just arrived in Paris night and immediately after stepping out of Garre Du Nord, I was walloped with an overwhelming scent of urine. Not that far off.

Re: Sweden Wants to Revive Europe’s Overnight Trains

#193
post #180
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes it unfair? Just curious. Is it subsidized in some fashion that trains are not?

I remember reading that EasyJet and Ryanair get subsidies from regional Airport authorities. They also regularly threaten to shut down their bases at said airports when they don’t get their way with pilot unions and so on.

Then you read something construed.

It's an informal subsidy at best in that local policymakers create these regional Airports in the first place, then struggle to find Airlines without large numbers of existing traffic. So they reach out to the likes of EasyJet and Ryanair, which are happy to book slots if the price is cheap enough. Their added volumes of traffic alone can make up for other costs an airport incurs (operations etc.) in that they can rent retail space for example. And it's a chance at attracting other carriers as well.

Every shopping mall (or new district) works the same way: Without anchor tenants (who attract large amounts of traffic) it's hard to get the venue off the ground. Which is why these anchor-tenants get huge discounts (for instance in German inner-city locations an ALDI gets to pay 3€/sqm, whilst the hair salon next door pays 20€/sqm).

The question of course is: Do these regions need Airports? Or is it morally flawed for urbanites to condemn flyover-people wanting to become better connected?

Re: Sweden Wants to Revive Europe’s Overnight Trains

#194
post #70

Swedish railways have been staggeringly mismanaged and neglected since the 1990s. I wouldn't be surprised if they're one of the worst managed railway systems in the entirety of what used to be known as the developed world. But it would be wonderful to have them restored and have international overnight services added. Hoping, with some skepticism, that the politics translate to reality here.

You are right but it's not likely to be fixed. On the contrary, the government has extracted billions upon billions in dividends from the state railway company, in order to shore up the budget.

Re: Sweden Wants to Revive Europe’s Overnight Trains

#195
post #121
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Denmark-Germany ferries on that route are ~150 m long, and fit a train of up to 100 m length (or something in that ballpark). https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:2017-08-22-ICE_TD_Puttga... Larger ferries on other routes have multiple rails next to each other, and long trains are split up across those.

>The Denmark-Germany ferries on that route are ~150 m long, and fit a train of up to 100 m length (or something in that ballpark). Whew! > https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:2017-08-22-ICE_TD_Puttga... . High-tech. >Larger ferries on other routes have multiple rails next to each other, and long trains are split up across those. Great idea.

Or low-tech -- the first train ferries like this ran in 1842.

As the Wikipedia article says, there are very few routes left in Europe, although there used to be a lot.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Train_ferry

Re: Sweden Wants to Revive Europe’s Overnight Trains

#196
post #109
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Warsaw to Paris trip on this train takes almost 21 hours... It's just a regular train, not particularly high-speed. There are a faster options available (down to 16 hours), but they require multiple layovers so I wouldn't say they're viable in practice. Overall, Europe is mostly dominated by cheap airlines, esp. in the Eastern part.

Actually, the Eastern part still has several useful and quite cheap night trains. In the west, lots are being cancelled because the train companies would rather have us take high speed trains.

Yep, but the distance that you can travel overnight is usually well under 1000 km... Which, even in Europe, is rather a regional and not a continental trip. The latter are practical pretty much only via air.

Re: Sweden Wants to Revive Europe’s Overnight Trains

#197
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember reading that EasyJet and Ryanair get subsidies from regional Airport authorities. They also regularly threaten to shut down their bases at said airports when they don’t get their way with pilot unions and so on.

Then you read something construed. It's an informal subsidy at best in that local policymakers create these regional Airports in the first place, then struggle to find Airlines without large numbers of existing traffic. So they reach out to the likes of EasyJet and Ryanair, which are happy to book slots if the price is cheap enough. Their added volumes of traffic alone can make up for other costs an airport incurs (o…

If an airline is using an airport cheaply and said airport continuously requires government money to not go bankrupt, that is a fairly clear subsidy. The "rent retail space and chance at attracting other carriers" doesn't work that reliably in practice, since those other carriers can play the same game of "we only come if we don't have to pay the actual costs", and can quickly shift to other airports if one stops playing ball. Sometimes it seems attracting airplane maintenance facilities is the most reliable source of income for such airports.

Especially since in many areas, long-distance air travel is pretty much a zero sum game: more small airports doesn't mean more people flying, it's just shifting people around between airports.

In truly remote areas I believe that's different and worth supporting (paying for infrastructure so people can travel more easily, when it'd otherwise be a day or two in the car to get to an airport), but e.g. in Germany there's a bunch of places that have good train connections to bigger airports, but regional airports with extremely limited air connections are still funded. E.g. one example I'm thinking of is less than 2 hours by train from 2 big airports, but apparently needs an airport that serves a few holiday flights each week. Every few years there's big announcements of new airlines coming in, which either get cancelled again after a few years, the airline goes bankrupt or ... While the running subsidies aren't that high, the initial investments were and IMHO would have been better used for other infrastructure.

Re: Sweden Wants to Revive Europe’s Overnight Trains

#198
post #146

So back in Russia a trip from my home town to Moscow on a plane takes about 6 hours in total. - get to the airport about 1 hour in advance - about 1.5 hour drive - The flight with all the procedures takes about 2 hours - All the exit procedures can take up to 0.5 hours easily if no longer - Wait for a train and ride to the city on the train - about 1 hour. - Once in the city get on subway and ride to destination - us…

When I was a wee lad, we used to go to St. Petersburg for several weeks every summer, and one of the things I was most excited for was the train rides from/to Moscow. It was quite fun, since it meant that I got to stay up somewhat late (we'd usually take the last train in the evening) and got to see all the sights of the railroad and whatnot. Early next morning, we'd be pulling into St. Petersburg, and it meant that I had the whole day left to do stuff.

I also remember that it was always a painless experience. My mother, who is usually rather anxious, never really worried about the train rides, whereas airplane trips now freak her out because of all the crap that surrounds them.

I miss that sort of access to train transport in the US. It just doesnt feel as good to travel by train in California as it did in Russia.

Re: Sweden Wants to Revive Europe’s Overnight Trains

#199

My experience is that flying inside Europe tends to be cheaper than long-distance train. Does anyone here whether it's simply intrinsically cheaper, or whether it's all because of kerosine subsidies etc? In other words, if countries would subsidize long-distance train as much as they subsidize air flight, would the economics look different? Would train get substantially cheaper? I lack both the insight and the data t…

Train infrastructure is pretty expensive. Planes need much less infrastructure.

Re: Sweden Wants to Revive Europe’s Overnight Trains

#200

Overnight trains are awesome and I am glad they are making a resurgence but is $5.3mm really "a major shot in the arm for Europe’s night trains overall"? That's not very much money for infrastructure. Perhaps the important thing here is that the Swedes are publicly announcing that they're spending money on this, in general. The cooler night train story is what is going on in Asia -- lots of projects in the works such…

100% agree. Would have thought $5.3m is barely be enough to fund a proper advertising campaign.
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