Live data from Hacker News

School is all about signaling, not skill-building

latimes.com

191–200 of 222 posts

Re: School is all about signaling, not skill-building

#191

In my view, school does not admit to a singular purpose, even if a number of people seem to achieve similar results from it. Instead, different students can pursue different strategies through school, and get different things out of it. Even if signaling is a benefit of school, it doesn't need to be the only benefit. School is a complex system. Take it apart. Figure out how it works. Adapt the pieces to make it do so…

Well part of why I upvoted this is because it would have been useful information to me 15 years ago. Certainly school can be used for any purpose (perhaps that's a truism). But the author's point also includes the fact that the market (and society) is largely indifferent to what you learn at school. In order to "Hack" school we need to be real with ourselves about what the world after school looks like. - I've never…

* I've rarely been asked about my GPA either, which is good because I sucked. On the other hand, A good GPA would have made some things I wanted to do easier.

* Most technical questions are basic because most "technical" jobs are very basic. However, there are people out there building operating systems kernels, secured software, and life-critical systems; I'm reasonably assured that you would have to demonstrate more than competence with a hash map.

* I too have never been asked to write a proof. But, thanks to my education, the techniques needed to write a proof are rather ingrained with how I understand writing code.

* I, too, ask people where they went to college, because if they went to the U. of Washington or Carnegie Mellon or someplace like that, I can't assume they'll know Kantian ethics but I can assume they'll have learned something; I can't make that assumption if they went to the U. of Phoenix, ITT Tech, or EPRI.

* Positions at the level of director do seem to be assigned by luck/politics/privilege. Positions at the level of internal medicine specialist, structural engineer, and the like tend not to be.

Re: School is all about signaling, not skill-building

#192
post #16

“If a student wants to study at Princeton, he doesn’t really need to apply or pay tuition. He can simply show up and start taking classes. As a professor, I assure you that we make near-zero effort to stop unofficial education; indeed, the rare, earnestly curious student touches our hearts. At the end of four years at Princeton, though, the guerrilla student would lack one precious thing: a diploma. The fact that alm…

If people living in Princeton had, let's say, a high quality UBI for life, I think a TV ad campaign saying just this would pack their lecture halls At which point Princeton would enforce their membership rules but that's another atory

I suspect this trick is already harder to pull off at a university in a big city, compared to one in a little college town.

Re: School is all about signaling, not skill-building

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> doctor someday who was educated at least in part by YouTube or comparable online resources Emphasis mine. No one cares if medical students avail themselves of digital resources to help them through medical school. Good for them. Show me how many practicing doctors passed the boards and made it through residency after ONLY using Youtube channels and flash cards to self-educate.

It's a continuum. Some people rely on the 'free' resources more than others. The real question is where is the cutoff percentage at. Say someone got 95% of what they know only from free resources and passed boards swimmingly. That sure don't look good on the med-school. Say 95% of the entire class got 95% of the learning through Youtube/Anki and 95% of them passed boards. At such a percentage, med-school is all but u…

Say they sprouted wings and flew around. That would be pretty bad for the air travel industry.

Have you a real, physical example of someone who "got 95% of what they know only from free resources and passed boards swimmingly"?

Re: School is all about signaling, not skill-building

#194
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The whole point of the article is there is zero correlation between people who've graduated from college and people who haven't in term of how well they do on the job. ... among the population who have been hired to do the job. This is conditioning on the collider. The people without a degree who got in are a highly selected sample compared to all people without degrees. Anyone who used this to argue that a degree…

> Anyone who used this to argue that a degree wasn’t a strong useful signal Reread the title of the article. The question is whether an individual would benefit from college even if everyone's college was enrollment/graduation status was kept secret from everyone, even classmates.

The same question would apply to pre-college education.

Re: School is all about signaling, not skill-building

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Adult learners are a demographic that could be highly motivated as you describe but often wouldn’t have any chance of getting in through the application process of an elite university. There are a lot of intelligent people out there who didn’t engage well with school when they were young for whatever reason but come to place a high value on education later in their lives. I think this group is quite poorly served by…

I disagree. I was able to get into one of the best graduate programs in my field a few years after a mediocre undergraduate record. This took some preparation, but it came down to finding other avenues to prove myself. The committee knows your undergrad record doesn't mean much if it was many years ago. "What else have you got?" they might ask. It takes some effort and creativity, but it can be done. Adults with a ne…

That's awesome that it worked out so well for you! It's not something that I've tried myself, just the impression that I have. I do wonder though if grad school admissions might be another story compared to undergrad, since they probably see a lot more older applicants with work experience and are possibly more used to adjusting their evaluations based on what the most recent/relevant signals are (just as businesses do when hiring).

But leaving during undergrad (or just never going to college) then excelling in self-learning and industry seems to put you in a much more awkward position when it comes to continuing onward with education. You are far beyond most undergrad-level courses, but in most cases you need that bachelor's degree to even be considered for grad-level programs--or at least I believe that's the case? You end up needing to waste years of your life and tons of money just to qualify for the courses that would actually teach you something new.

So perhaps the problem is as much that there just aren't compelling tracks offered to people who don't fit neatly into the lines as it is about admissions flexibility.

Re: School is all about signaling, not skill-building

#196
post #93

Maybe for the elite. But for middle class people like myself, I developed marketable skills, secured multiple internships, and found it easy to get a full-time job straight out of school. I had about a years worth of industry experience via internships (one for 6 months, two others 3 months each). Signaling doesn't buy you much. At least in engineering, because a technical interview will sort out whether or not you a…

> Signaling doesn't buy you much. At least in engineering, because a technical interview will sort out whether or not you actually demonstrate basic programming skills very quick. Doesn't everyone complain about how technical interviews only measure how well the candidate is prepared for technical interviews? With that in mind, I'd argue that the willingness to prepare for a technical interview has become just anothe…

"Doesn't everyone complain about how technical interviews only measure how well the candidate is prepared for technical interviews?"

Many do. I used to believe that was because they had never sat on the other side of the table and seen how many people were just trying to bluff their way through without the ability to do anything.

Now, I am much more bitterly cynical.

Re: School is all about signaling, not skill-building

#197
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first issue is that JS has evolved every few years. For example, we went from callbacks to promises and now to async/await. Or look at how modules have evolved. Or the use of const and let vs. var. The other issue is that there are layers of other skills that also evolve every few years. So to create a "bar exam" for a front-end web engineer, for example, you would need a completely different version every two ye…

Async/await is just syntactic sugar for Promises. A CS bar exam should just assess fundamentals -- if you have a good CS base, and problem-solving skills, you will adapt with the times as technology changes. Then, it wouldn't need to be updated to include new ES6 functionality. Besides, someone who does back-end Java doesn't need to concern themselves with language change to JavaScript. That's another reason why such…

Many people have.

Most of them were vendor specific and so sucked.

Others were too low-level and so were meaningless, or never had any buy-in from anyone. They sucked.

Finally, can you image the same crowd that complains about technical interviews responding to a bar exam? "I haven't ever had to write a binary tree in my 30-years of real-world experience! Why would I have to do it for your test?!" That would suck.

Re: School is all about signaling, not skill-building

#198
post #87
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, Software Engineering is a super special exception that does not apply anywhere else.

Assuming you are not being sarcastic, could you enumerate the main reasons as to why software engineering is super special?

I'm asuming he was sarcastic, but...

"Software engineering" doesn't have much to do with either software (it's mostly generic project management) or engineering (ask an engineer: vector calculus! statics, dynamics and thermodynamics!)

Re: School is all about signaling, not skill-building

#199
post #16

“If a student wants to study at Princeton, he doesn’t really need to apply or pay tuition. He can simply show up and start taking classes. As a professor, I assure you that we make near-zero effort to stop unofficial education; indeed, the rare, earnestly curious student touches our hearts. At the end of four years at Princeton, though, the guerrilla student would lack one precious thing: a diploma. The fact that alm…

As an aside, back in the good ol' days, students paid their instructors directly, out of pocket. You can damn well bet more than "near-zero" effort would be applied in that case.

Anyway, society spends a lot of effort supporting students, from scholarships and tax exemptions to the social beliefs that allow the random person to spend several years doing nothing apparently productive without censure. But all that only applies to students actually enrolled---non-guerrilla students. Guerrilla studenting, as it was in the past, would only be the province of the idly wealthy. That, I think, is why no one tries that route.

Re: School is all about signaling, not skill-building

#200
post #83
post #16

“If a student wants to study at Princeton, he doesn’t really need to apply or pay tuition. He can simply show up and start taking classes. As a professor, I assure you that we make near-zero effort to stop unofficial education; indeed, the rare, earnestly curious student touches our hearts. At the end of four years at Princeton, though, the guerrilla student would lack one precious thing: a diploma. The fact that alm…

Yes, but he might stick around and take and pass the Ph.D. qualifying exams and then be well on his way to a Princeton degree: At least at one time, the Princeton math department Web site stated that, IIRC, "students are expected to prepare for the qualifying exams on their own and that no courses are offered to prepare students for the qualifying exams. Courses are introductions to research by experts in their field…

Many (Some?) schools operate that way---the first step in a PhD is a qualifying exam. Some students may be able to pass it immediately after their undergraduate studies, while others (most?) require some remediate studying---undergrad classes, I guess.

UT Austin, at the time I was there, used the other (and better, I think) method: breadth and depth graduate classes, typically more advanced versions of advanced undergrad classes. The breadth classes covered most of CS, while the depth classes were more introductions to specific areas of research.

Edit: Oral quals are just hazing, in my opinion.

Post reply on HN