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Boeing 737 Max pilots complained to feds for months about suspected safety flaw

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Re: Boeing 737 Max pilots complained to feds for months about suspected safety flaw

#191

Post by [deleted] »

dpwm wrote: post #91
ehsankia wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be ironic if the lack of 737-MAX category for reports is why these reports never made it to the people who needed to see them, which caused the issue to go unnoticed.

1555013 is pretty damning in telling how the airlines treated the MAX as the same type as the 737-800: "I had my first flight on the Max [to] ZZZ1. We found out we were scheduled to fly the aircraft on the way to the airport in the limo. We had a little time [to] review the essentials in the car. Otherwise we would have walked onto the plane cold.My post flight evaluation is that we lacked the knowledge to operate th…

[deleted]

Re: Boeing 737 Max pilots complained to feds for months about suspected safety flaw

#192

Post by lixtra »

cjbprime wrote: post #187
lixtra wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> seems likely to be the root cause of these deaths. Given that investigation in both accidents is still ongoing and all we know is wild speculation your conclusion is premature even though it finally may turn out to be true.

You're quoting the phrase "seems likely". It's not a conclusion. It's my guess at what's most probable based on what we know today. (Also, I don't agree that we only know "wild speculation" about the Lion Air crash. The investigators have told us much about the proximate cause of the crash, even though their final investigation is not yet complete.)

Maybe it’s my English. What probability do you assign to “seems likely”? Above 50% (the way I read it)? Or does it mean it’s a possible outcome among many others, all with very low probability?

Re: Boeing 737 Max pilots complained to feds for months about suspected safety flaw

#193

Post by cjbprime »

CodeSheikh wrote: post #51

Please make a conscious choice when flying 737 Max on US domestic flights. It is your right to know the type of aircraft when you are booking your flight. Switching to a reasonably expensive alternative is worth more than any foreseeable trouble.

> It is your right to know the type of aircraft when you are booking your flight.

This is not actually any kind of right in the US. The airline can switch to using a MAX just before the flight boards without breaking any law or contract with you, and would not have to honor your request to travel on a non-MAX aircraft instead.

Re: Boeing 737 Max pilots complained to feds for months about suspected safety flaw

#195

Post by dajohnson89 »

privong wrote: post #145
dajohnson89 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So 20 MAX-related issues out of ~850. How is that significant?

> So 20 MAX-related issues out of ~850. How is that significant? To build on what @ggm and @siwatanejo noted. The 737 debuted in 1967, so it is 52 years old now. The 737 MAX is 2 years old. In terms of number of issues per year since the aircraft was introduced the 737 is at ~15 incidents per year and the 737 MAX is at ~10/year. But as @ggm notes, it's important to look at when in the life cycle many of the non-MAX 7…

So then why did I get downvoted so hard?

Re: Boeing 737 Max pilots complained to feds for months about suspected safety flaw

#196

Post by AnabeeKnox »

toweringgoat wrote: post #186

>> Thank you for being a patron of the Dallas Morning News. Unfortunately, our site is unavailable to European Union visitors Please learn some basic geography. Norway (and Switzerland) are not in the EU.

GDPR applies to Norway, even if it's not in EU

Re: Boeing 737 Max pilots complained to feds for months about suspected safety flaw

#197

Post by inferiorhuman »

lsh123 wrote: post #101
sfilargi wrote: post #99

For a car analogy, imagine Tesla creates a new model that under certain conditions tends to over-steer left. To prevent any accidents because of that, they have added a system that turns the steering wheel clockwise. To disable the system it is not enough to try to prevent by force the steering wheel from turning, but you have to press a button that disables electric steering assistance. Notice they have never briefe…

Incorrect analogy. Runaway trim is a common and known problem with a solution to pull the electric trim breaker. MCAS failure is very similar in appearance and have exactly the same solution.

MCAS failure is very similar in appearance and have exactly the same solution.

MCAS doesn't behave like a runaway stabilizer. MCAS adjusts the trim periodically and will back off if you apply opposite trim.

The steps to deal with runaway trim are[1]:

1 Control column . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Hold firmly

2 Autopilot (if engaged) . . . . . . . . . . . . . Disengage

Do not re-engage the autopilot

Control airplane pitch attitude manually with control column and main electric trim as needed.

3 If the runaway stops:

  ■   ■   ■   ■
So someone trying to make sense of MCAS would logically stop at step 3 and not actually disable MCAS.

1: http://www.737ng.co.uk/737-800%20Quick%20Reference%20Handboo...

Re: Boeing 737 Max pilots complained to feds for months about suspected safety flaw

#198

Post by kalleboo »

untog wrote: post #175
NikolaNovak wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Boggles the mind on several levels: 1. That airlines would use consumer tablets without hard-copy backup as matter of procedure. I remember Air Canada announcing it and how it would save so much weight for both pilots and the airplane, and thinking... I print my Google Maps as a backup for roadtrips, I sure as heck would do it on a flight! 2. Perhaps I'm misjudging, but the tone and perspective of pilot makes me worr…

I'd be curious to know what "WiFi" means here exactly. If it means "my flight plan is stored on the internet and I didn't save a local copy" then yeah, I think that's insane. But if it's a local WiFi network it doesn't seem so weird to me. You should, in the course of day to day operation, be able to expect a WiFi router will work. Of course, it'll fail at some point, but it's not like they were cut off from the worl…

> You should, in the course of day to day operation, be able to expect a WiFi router will work.

My experience with WiFi routers is the opposite. I will wire anything important.

Re: Boeing 737 Max pilots complained to feds for months about suspected safety flaw

#199

Post by archon810 »

gok wrote: post #157
lsh123 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know that you need to break when you get close to another veichle in front. Now you have a new shiny cruise control (without latest distance keeping feature). Well, you still need to break when you get close to a veichle in front of you.

*brake

An unfortunate typo.

Re: Boeing 737 Max pilots complained to feds for months about suspected safety flaw

#200

Post by jsjohnst »

varenc wrote: post #150
dpwm wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1555013 is pretty damning in telling how the airlines treated the MAX as the same type as the 737-800: "I had my first flight on the Max [to] ZZZ1. We found out we were scheduled to fly the aircraft on the way to the airport in the limo. We had a little time [to] review the essentials in the car. Otherwise we would have walked onto the plane cold.My post flight evaluation is that we lacked the knowledge to operate th…

Wow... I wonder how much of this could have been avoided if the 737-Max had just been given an entirely new model name like "738". I'd assume that when the 777's came out even pilots with experience on the 767 and other Boeing planes were still given ample training beforehand. The minor difference in the Max's model name disguises the seemingly large difference in their operation.

> if the 737-Max had just been given an entirely new model name like "738"

That model name would’ve been worse. The 737-800 is very commonly abbreviated to 738 in the industry (739 being 737-900, 744 being the 747-400, etc).

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