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E.U.’s Biggest Economies Ban Boeing Max 8 Jets

nytimes.com

191–200 of 365 posts

Re: E.U.’s Biggest Economies Ban Boeing Max 8 Jets

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All in the name of band aid environmental pandering.

Try the fact that the fuel efficiency saves the airline lots of $$$ on fuel, but yet they haven't reduced fares any. Go figure.

Nope, airfares bounce around and have been going down for the last 8 years.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CUSR0000SETG01

Partly as fuel prices go down:

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=eaB3

Re: E.U.’s Biggest Economies Ban Boeing Max 8 Jets

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I gathered so far, it looks like airplane design was made with many compromises that made it complicated to pilot planes properly.

I agree, in my eyes it is debate between "the plane is not safe to fly by anyone" and "the plane is safe to fly with additional training, when given" If the 737 MAX planes remain in the air in the USA, Boeing and US Govt are de facto saying "third world pilots clearly just don't understand how to fly our planes". If they ground the planes, they de facto admit there is an actual safety issue.

> "the plane is safe to fly with additional training, when given"

Here's the thing. The additional training is not strictly necessary. The same procedures pilots are already trained for in previous models should have saved the aircraft. Unless investigations turn up a new problem.

Of course, one could argue that, by disclosure changes to the system, that the pilots would be able to react faster. But that's not really for us to decide.

Re: E.U.’s Biggest Economies Ban Boeing Max 8 Jets

#193
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Boeing is issuing a software update in April. https://boeing.mediaroom.com/news-releases-statements?item=1...

A software update that was scheduled for distribution (iirc) in January, so already late. As a software practitioner, this scares the living shit out of me. Already late software, now pushed for a deadline-driven release... This can't end well.

I would think the software is relatively simple and that the fix, as it's described, is more smoothing inputs and limiting outputs. Or course the combined software that flies a plane is enormous and incredibly complicated, but I'm talking about a relatively small component of that whole. The program reads sensors and actuates surfaces to correct what it incorrectly registered as an abnormally high angle of attack but was, in reality, a misbehaving sensor. The new program, from what's described, tries to figure out the right value even if the sensor disagrees, and limits the output to avoid large corrections. Along the programs, they also need to write new documentation, operating and maintenance manuals, issue corrections for flight simulators and so on.

It's also not the first plane to crash because of software reading bad data from bad sensors. Or the last.

Re: E.U.’s Biggest Economies Ban Boeing Max 8 Jets

#194
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds really stupid for Boeing if you put it that way. I can imagine it looks good on the marketing material, 'no pilot retraining required!', but as far as I understand from all the analysis so far, it's actually not that hard to disable the new MCAS system and prevent a crash. As a pilot you only need to know it is there, and what happens if it somehow fails. I would be surprised if they had sold even a single…

I also wonder about the engineers involved, what they think about the system and whether it was created expressly for getting around retraining, realizing late into the project that the changes to the in-flight behavior of the plane may have been too much.

The contractors involved would be gone long before realizing anything. The decade(s) it takes to make a new plane is much longer than any tenure.

Re: E.U.’s Biggest Economies Ban Boeing Max 8 Jets

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All in the name of band aid environmental pandering.

Try the fact that the fuel efficiency saves the airline lots of $$$ on fuel, but yet they haven't reduced fares any. Go figure.

IDK how things are in your sphere, but in the context of where I live, I have watched overseas travel go from bougie luxury to something everyone can do over the last 20-25 years.

Re: E.U.’s Biggest Economies Ban Boeing Max 8 Jets

#196
post #109

At the gym today, on all the TVs, the media talking heads were crucifying the FAA for being "unsafe" or playing fast and loose with passenger safety (for not grounding the planes). I've always held the FAA in high regard, and think they do a good job. Are they really being negligent here? Or is the media just looking for something to spark outrage? Can anyone with more specific knowledge of aircraft safety weigh in?

It could be an EU-USA economic war. We’ve seen the Being competition won over the A380, which had to be abandoned. Maybe any excuse to ground a Boeing airframe and incur costs to owners makes Airbus look better. It doesn’t have to be lobbying, it could be a natural inclination.

It’s mean, but I’m not surprised, given the money in the game, that Europe is acting up much faster than FAA for a Boeing airframe, and the opposite for an Airbus/DC airframe.

Re: E.U.’s Biggest Economies Ban Boeing Max 8 Jets

#197
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 777 is the second-safest aircraft in the world, next to the Airbus A340. The 787 is on track to demonstrate a similar safety record (in terms of fatal incidents). So overall, they seem to be quite good.

Those were produced pre-FAANG, Boeing probably paid comparatively better then. Do the smartest software engineers flock to Boeing in 2019? I think the relatively low pay and status of software engineers outside of the Bay Area is a huge risk to society. We are going to start seeing it show up in interesting places.

Not sure why you're being downvoted. There has been a brain-drain from industry and academia because FAANG and the Bay Area have been providing software engineers with much better compensation, even with the cost-of-living factored in.

Some companies can't compete, and many others just refuse to compete.

Re: E.U.’s Biggest Economies Ban Boeing Max 8 Jets

#198
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 777 is the second-safest aircraft in the world, next to the Airbus A340. The 787 is on track to demonstrate a similar safety record (in terms of fatal incidents). So overall, they seem to be quite good.

Those were produced pre-FAANG, Boeing probably paid comparatively better then. Do the smartest software engineers flock to Boeing in 2019? I think the relatively low pay and status of software engineers outside of the Bay Area is a huge risk to society. We are going to start seeing it show up in interesting places.

[deleted]

Re: E.U.’s Biggest Economies Ban Boeing Max 8 Jets

#199
post #138

EASA has just banned 737 MAX jets throughout Europe. https://www.easa.europa.eu/newsroom-and-events/press-release...

The official directives seem to be these ones: https://ad.easa.europa.eu/blob/EASA_AD_2019_0051_E.pdf/EAD_2... and https://ad.easa.europa.eu/blob/EASA_SD_2019_01.pdf/SD_SD-201... In particular, ferry flights are allowed with certain limitations.

From the notice:

> "[...]do not operate the aeroplane, except that a single non-commercial ferry flight (up to three flight cycles) may be accomplished to return the aeroplane to a location where the expected corrective action(s) can be accomplished.".

Doesn't this just say the 737 MAX can be flown only to undergo future maintenance that'll resolve whatever the current issue is, unless another notice is posted clearing it?

Re: E.U.’s Biggest Economies Ban Boeing Max 8 Jets

#200
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As you say, most of the speculation seems to focus on MCAS in combination with faulty sensor data. While, as a layman, pilots being unfamiliar with MCAS seems like a reasonable explanation, doesn't this theory still require 2 planes in 6 months to have faulty AOA sensor data? That seems unusually high to me as well. I haven't really seen any comments on that.

It does not seem too surprising to me. Sensors fail all the time on planes. The AOA sensor seems like a particularly good candidate for failure given the design. I think most people don't realize just how much stuff can be broken on an airliner and it still deemed safe to fly. And it happens all the time.

I think you'll be surprised to see how long a typical MMEL is: http://fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/mmel/b-737%20r55a.pdf

Sure, airliners might fly all the time with a missing seat number or a broken overhead bin. They're big, complex machines. But if you're implying that it's routine to fly with broken sensors, then no. That's not true.

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