Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Indonesia reports reduced deforestation, triggering carbon payment from Norway

norway.no

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

191–200 of 234 posts

Re: Indonesia reports reduced deforestation, triggering carbon payment from Norway

#191

Post by phil248 »

StreamBright wrote: post #4
maaaats wrote: post #2

> In 2010, Norway pledged to support Indonesia with up to 1 billion USD depending on results. It's easy to sit in a developed western country, buying products from other countries, and then complain about their emissions. I'm glad that we're trying to be responsible. It may not be enough or not the right way to do it (some thoughts on this?), but it's something.

This is exactly what most Westerners do not get about China. If you want to reduce emissions stop buying their products.

Sure an economic collapse in China would benefit the environment, but so would the economic collapse of the West.

There are better solutions that don't involve trading human suffering for environmental protection.

Re: Indonesia reports reduced deforestation, triggering carbon payment from Norway

#192

Post by darpa_escapee »

reaperducer wrote: post #156
StreamBright wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly what most Westerners do not get about China. If you want to reduce emissions stop buying their products.

This is exactly what most Westerners do not get about China. If you want to reduce emissions stop buying their products. Help me find a consumer toaster made in the United States. I searched for six months and only found ones made in China. If I want a giant hotel toaster, there is an American option. But nothing sized for a household kitchen. There are lots of people who make efforts to buy domestically. But so much…

Sounds like we need regulations to prevent the outsourcing of manufacturing to China.

Re: Indonesia reports reduced deforestation, triggering carbon payment from Norway

#193

Post by NeedMoreTea »

reaperducer wrote: post #190
yesenadam wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure how to say this constructively, but your comment reads as if there are only 2 countries in the world! Why is 'Made in USA' your only alternative to 'Made in China'?

It isn't. But as I stated, there were exactly zero choices other than Made in China when I searched. And I did a very thorough search.

Dualit Classic. A very expensive toaster that's been made by hand, for ages, in the UK. Repairable too!

https://www.dualit.com/products/classic

Re: Indonesia reports reduced deforestation, triggering carbon payment from Norway

#194

Post by [deleted] »

rebornshellfish wrote: post #186
porpoisely wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the "externalities" got shifted from indonesia to somewhere else. How about this, if indonesia told norway to go to hell, cut down their forests, got rich and then in 20 years paid Laos $1 billion to spare their forests. Would we celebrate indonesia as great environmentalists? Of course not. We'd call them hypocrites, especially when the deforestation just moved to cambodia instead. At the end of the day, this ex…

>Tax all of europe X amount of money and shift that wealth to indonesia and ASEAN to achieve an equal living standard? You're literally the most evil person I have ever seen on the internet. High IQ Europeans, who have secular values, who have the greatest respect for human rights, who invest a lot in their children, and who already suffer under an excessive regulatory/tax burden, do not owe the rest of the world any…

[deleted]

Re: Indonesia reports reduced deforestation, triggering carbon payment from Norway

#195

Post by int_19h »

RHSeeger wrote: post #164
vkou wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't have to consent. That's the whole point of tariffs. They can be imposed unilaterally (As we have recently seen with the US - China shoving contest. Which, of course, had nothing to do with the environment, or carbon emissions, and everything to do with political optics.)

A tariff is generally across the board though, by product type. If one company starts being more "green" than the others in the country of origin, it doesn't generally get hit less by tariffs.

It can be implemented on a per-company basis, just as sanctions often are.

Re: Indonesia reports reduced deforestation, triggering carbon payment from Norway

#196

Post by int_19h »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #49
est31 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Insects are most efficient btw, but there are cultural reservations about them in the west.

They could grow insects to process into unrecognisable "filler", right?

It's already done, and has been for ages - dried crickets can be ground into "cricket flour". This takes care of the things crunching while you eat them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cricket_flour

Re: Indonesia reports reduced deforestation, triggering carbon payment from Norway

#197

Post by int_19h »

tropo wrote: post #145
est31 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Insects are most efficient btw, but there are cultural reservations about them in the west.

We have the same cultural reservations about shrimp. We do not normally eat the head, tail, exoskeleton, legs, gills, or poo-filled gut. It's pretty similar for chicken; nobody eats the feathers and beaks and poop. Shrimp is nevertheless popular however. We simply remove the parts for which we have cultural reservations. So, where can I get insects that have been properly prepared, just like shrimp?

Even in Western countries, this varies. For example, in many European countries, there are various dishes involving small fish that's cooked and eaten basically whole, with intestines and all. Examples include Baltic sprats (usually smoked and then canned in oil), or Bulgarian tsatsa (same fish coated in flour and deep fried). Both are delicious, by the way.

Re: Indonesia reports reduced deforestation, triggering carbon payment from Norway

#198

Post by int_19h »

duopixel wrote: post #16

When I first moved to Europe I was struck by just how domesticated the land is. I can sleep in the open without being afraid of snakes, scorpions, spiders, wolves or bears. Even when land is "wild", the larger mammals will be rabbits, deer, wild goats and such. Excepting natural parks, hunters are the only predators. At least in Spain, a tremendous percentage of land is put at the service of mankind. The dehesas give…

I grew up in forested parts of Eastern Europe, and lived there for over 20 years. The first time I've seen a squirrel in my life, outside of a zoo, was in Canada - and I've camped in forests many times before.

But you shouldn't assume that there are no poisonous snakes. That's not true even in the most cultivated parts - many snakes do pretty well regardless.

Re: Indonesia reports reduced deforestation, triggering carbon payment from Norway

#199

Post by int_19h »

shoo wrote: post #143
varjag wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's exactly what indirect means. Only a tiny portion of this oil and gas was ever used in Norway, the rest was exported. A lot of it was used up by developing nations. Either way there were no hydrocarbon exports prior to early 1970s. Unless by "predecessors" you mean gen-x'ers.

Norway gained a lot of wealth from extracting and selling the oil. All parties in the transaction (producer, middle men, end users) "should" be carbon taxed to some degree. It's not obvious to me why you'd only want to carbon tax the consumer. Similarly, in public debate there's a lot of finger pointing at oil companies. The public can be somewhat less vocal about wanting to carbon tax the demand side of the trade, o…

The consumer is the one actually putting that carbon into the atmosphere. Taxing the consumer therefore encourages better uses of oil (such as making polymers).

Re: Indonesia reports reduced deforestation, triggering carbon payment from Norway

#200

Post by porpoisely »

rebornshellfish wrote: post #186
porpoisely wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the "externalities" got shifted from indonesia to somewhere else. How about this, if indonesia told norway to go to hell, cut down their forests, got rich and then in 20 years paid Laos $1 billion to spare their forests. Would we celebrate indonesia as great environmentalists? Of course not. We'd call them hypocrites, especially when the deforestation just moved to cambodia instead. At the end of the day, this ex…

>Tax all of europe X amount of money and shift that wealth to indonesia and ASEAN to achieve an equal living standard? You're literally the most evil person I have ever seen on the internet. High IQ Europeans, who have secular values, who have the greatest respect for human rights, who invest a lot in their children, and who already suffer under an excessive regulatory/tax burden, do not owe the rest of the world any…

I think you are misreading what I wrote. Obviously I'm not advocating for all of europe to be tax and the wealth shifted. It was an example to highlight my point of Europe minding its own business and Indonesia minding its own business. Norway shouldn't get to tell Indonesia what to do with its own resources and vice versa. Hope that clarified any misunderstanding.
Post reply on HN