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Taxpayers Should Never Subsidize Stadiums

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Re: Taxpayers Should Never Subsidize Stadiums

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d bet that if we did the same for roads you would be very upset.

Why would you make that assumption?

Well, GP made a comment implying that it is inappropriate or unwise for governments to subsidize infrastructure used only by a certain sub-segment of the population. Conspicuously the list of things that GP wishes to be un-funded excluded roads, indicating that GP did not believe it improper for governments to be building roads with taxpayer revenue.

From where I sit, there are three possible reasons one might believe the above and still be okay with governments building roads.

1. Everyone uses roads.

2. Road users pay for road construction via gas & usage taxes.

3. Roads are important enough to subsidize, because all of us depend on goods delivered via roads and benefit by their economic activity.

Reason 1 is just too facile to worry about too much. Not everyone drives, especially in urban areas.

Reason 2 is extremely common, and extremely wrong. While gas taxes exist and do help pay for roads, they have never actually completely covered the cost of America's road network. While the exact percentage varies on a state by state basis, most states have less than 50% of their road costs covered directly by gas tax & usage fees. By 2010 only 34.4% of California's road costs were covered by said fees, the rest were provided by federal subsidy (presumably income & corporate tax based) and state/local taxes (income & sales ). Gas taxes have never covered the cost of roads, the highest they ever got was about 70% in the 1950s, and it appears that we're on a downward slide still.

Gas taxes are also extremely poorly structured ensure that those who do the most wear & tear to roads pay for them, see addendum.

Belief 3 is really tricky, because it encompasses the idea that infrastructure projects that one doesn't use directly might be worthwhile subsidizing for the economic benefits shared by all. It is very hard to hold the belief that "roads are worthwhile for the economic good, even if I don't drive on some of them specifically" while also believing that "public transit infrastructures are bad for me to subsidize because I will never use them". Put in this way, it is extremely incoherent to attack the existence of say, the NY subway, as worthless, ignoring the billions of dollars in economic activity that it helps facilitate.

Given these three options, it seems to me that belief 2 is the most probable. Hence my statement that the author would be pretty shocked if they were asked directly to bear the cost of their road use directly.

Addendum: While gas taxes might have utility in pricing in externalities of carbon production, they're god awful at distributing the cost of road wear and tear equitably. Gas taxes make the assumption that gas consumption is a good proxy of road use, which it is not. Roads experience wear and tear based on weather and the speed/weight of the vehicle. So a H2 (8,600lbs) appears to do roughly 21x the wear to the roads that a "standard" 4,000lb car does at the exact same speed. This produces some silly scenarios where a Fiat 124 (2,400lbs, 30mpg) would pay more in gas tax than a Prius Prime (3,300lb, 54mpg) on the same routes, despite the former doing much less damage all else being equal.

And that's not even getting into the issue of EVs which both pay no gas tax and are extremely heavy (~5,000lbs for a Tesla S or X).

Re: Taxpayers Should Never Subsidize Stadiums

#192
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First I'm hearing of this. That's royally fucked up. I guess the only solution is to wait for all those people to die so that the homes will change hands and trigger re-assessment.

Nope. They can pass them to their kids, and it won’t trigger reassessment. > 60% of houses like that in the LA area are rented out for tax arbitrage reasons by the kids that inherited them. They can buy multiple houses rent them out, and then let the kids live in them when they grow up. Also, businesses can own multiple properties and sell them without reassessment (there is a well-known loophole involving shell comp…

[deleted]

Re: Taxpayers Should Never Subsidize Stadiums

#193
post #3
post #2

Needs to be made illegal (not just stadiums) http://www.governing.com/gov-institute/on-leadership/col-eco... or at least not federally subsidized https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/senate-bill/134... https://www.goodjobsfirst.org/ is a good general resource on the issue.

How would one propose to make it illegal for an elected government to finance construction of a public building? I mean, yeah, sports stadiums are wasteful. But how would you draft that such that it wouldn't eliminate libraries and museums? I mean, I agree with you in spirit but at the end of the day the whole point of a democratic government is that it's empowered to work to better our collective lives. And that has…

> But how would you draft that such that it wouldn't eliminate libraries and museums?

That's easy! You just make the law only apply to stadiums.

I am sure it would be perfectly possible to include a detailed description of what a stadium is, in the law.

Re: Taxpayers Should Never Subsidize Stadiums

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

housing prices are definitely influenced by supply. and homelessness is definitely driven by housing prices. so, yea. I think it’s more likely that mental illness and addiction are bigger factors, along with an absence of good interventions and an abuse of the prison system. Statistics showing a majority of American homeless people are either mentally ill, addicted to drugs, or both certainly support that view over y…

What statistics are those? Can you cite your sources? Because I've never seen anything that suggests that a majority of homeless people have addiction/mental illness problems. A higher percentage of such issues then the housed population, sure, but not a majority. AFAIK, you can find a direct correspondence between increased rental prices and increased homelessness, and that's the main contributor. https://www.zillow…

Depending on your source it ranges from ~33% to over 50%. SAMHSA stats out it over 50%, others like this out it lower around 48%:

https://www.nationalhomeless.org/factsheets/addiction.pdf

https://sunrisehouse.com/addiction-demographics/homeless-pop...

https://mentalillnesspolicy.org/consequences/homeless-mental...

In January 2015, the most extensive survey ever undertaken found 564,708 people were homeless on a given night in the United States. Depending on the age group in question, and how homelessness is defined, the consensus estimate as of 2014 was that, at minimum, 25 percent of the American homeless—140,000 individuals—were seriously mentally ill at any given point in time. Forty-five percent of the homeless—250,000 individuals—had any mental illness. More would be labeled homeless if these were annual counts rather than point-in-time counts.

https://www.nationalhomeless.org/factsheets/addiction.pdf

Although obtaining an accurate, recent count is difficult, the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration (2003) estimates, 38% of homeless people were dependent on alcohol and 26% abused other drugs. Alcohol abuse is more common in older generations, while drug abuse is more common in homeless youth and young adults (Didenko and Pankratz, 2007). Substance abuse is much more common among homeless people than in the general population. According to the 2006 National Household Survey on Drug Use and Health (NSDUH), 15% of people above the age of 12 reported using drugs within the past year and only 8% reported using drugs within the past month.

https://www.treatmentadvocacycenter.org/fixing-the-system/fe...

Re: Taxpayers Should Never Subsidize Stadiums

#195
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First I'm hearing of this. That's royally fucked up. I guess the only solution is to wait for all those people to die so that the homes will change hands and trigger re-assessment.

Nope. They can pass them to their kids, and it won’t trigger reassessment. > 60% of houses like that in the LA area are rented out for tax arbitrage reasons by the kids that inherited them. They can buy multiple houses rent them out, and then let the kids live in them when they grow up. Also, businesses can own multiple properties and sell them without reassessment (there is a well-known loophole involving shell comp…

Yeah I don't understand aggression toward long time residents. Like... On what basis is anyone wanting to move I to an area and opposed to... Exactly what's good about the area. More population density in SF sounds like a deal breaker to me.

It's already not worth any money to me to move between SF and mtv. Tried it for years. It's terrible already .

Re: Taxpayers Should Never Subsidize Stadiums

#196
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First I'm hearing of this. That's royally fucked up. I guess the only solution is to wait for all those people to die so that the homes will change hands and trigger re-assessment.

Nope. They can pass them to their kids, and it won’t trigger reassessment. > 60% of houses like that in the LA area are rented out for tax arbitrage reasons by the kids that inherited them. They can buy multiple houses rent them out, and then let the kids live in them when they grow up. Also, businesses can own multiple properties and sell them without reassessment (there is a well-known loophole involving shell comp…

If I were to speculate about the outlines of the “shell company” loophole you describe - I figure you would form a company to own the property, and then sell the company instead of the property directly? Is that right, and if so, any reason you can’t do that for a house?

Re: Taxpayers Should Never Subsidize Stadiums

#198

I cringe when I see SF bringing the Warriors to town. Why not use the space for housing? It’s not like Cincinnati where you need Sports attractions to draw people to the area. Having a Sports Team May help local restaurants, but I would think so would more houses. When there are so many homeless people, the housing stock is more important than a stadium.

Don’t bring Cincinnati into this! Cincinnati learned these lessons the hard way with their stadium deals in the 90s. For the new MLS stadium being built here, the stadium is being privately financed. Public money is going to be used for a parking facility and other supporting infrastructure like streets, etc.

So the profitable part is owned by the private financiers, and the city only pays for all the externalities?

Re: Taxpayers Should Never Subsidize Stadiums

#199

I watch some of the video generated by the Maddon football video game, and find it almost as realistic as the real games. Someday, some entrepreneur is going to figure out that you can have realistic pro games generated by software. It will save a lot on player salaries etc. Then when the people at home start watching those instead of the real games (maybe they will all be online, and not blocked by the networks), th…

Games are not just about a ball moving. People attach feelings to players and teams, especially if they’re from their city. A computer match wouldn’t have either

Not only that, a big reason people watch sports is to witness peak human performance.

Re: Taxpayers Should Never Subsidize Stadiums

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But then... SF still wouldn't have housing, Oakland would. It's in another county. Come on, there's no reason to limit buildings to as short as they are right now. It's as if the city of SF has given up on change entirely.

This is like beating a dead horse. People move to SF, complain there isn’t enough housing, do this for a few years and either leave or realize it’s not going to change. It is the way it is, it’s not changing in a year a or two. This is a generational thing that will take at least a decade if not longer to change. The End. Don’t believe me? Check this comment in five years. Call it NIMBY call it whatever you want but…

Their actions have a moral cost and the people who pay those costs aren't the tech transplants, they're literally every other kind of person who slowly finds themselves unable to live in a place that is just as much their home as the owners of property. Schoolteachers, firefighters, garbage truck drivers, restaurant workers, people who lost their job, people in temporary unemployment and in need of retraining.

I understand that the problem feels intractable, but it's because we treat the people make it so like something that simply is. It is not a thing that simply is, it is a moral choice made my hundreds of thousands of people over and over again and it is their failure.

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