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How Did Our Medical Notes Become So Useless?

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191–200 of 206 posts

Re: How Did Our Medical Notes Become So Useless?

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is what they're doing illegal or is that behavior not prohibited by HIPPA?

It is legal. HIPPA protects you from chatty employees and gross incompetence.

"Protects" you. It just gives some penalties to the companies for gross negligence, kind of like the GDPR is trying to do for all of personal data in the EU.

Re: How Did Our Medical Notes Become So Useless?

#192
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just want to say that I'm happy to see one of y'all on here. If doctors and engineers were to collaborate together directly to fill in each others' domain knowledge gaps instead of buying crap software from companies with poor incentives, some truly amazing things could happen.

It's not as uncommon as you think. I'm both a paramedic and a developer for an EHR, and we have a number of other medical professionals (including a physician) in various product related roles.

I know that EHR companies surely employ both engineers and medical professionals, but are they able to freely innovate and explore, or are they bound to top-down bureaucracy with, as another responder mentioned, misaligned incentives? The kind of thing that I imagine would be a fully open source, open standards implementation that could allow easy portability of records between all providers.

Re: How Did Our Medical Notes Become So Useless?

#193
post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3. No, it's not. If you go in for a wonky heart, and you get some kind of imaging done on your chest, and then spot something in your lungs, they SHOULD ignore it. Outcome-Based Medicine says that's what they should do. They CAN'T ignore it. Cardiologists actively want the lungs REMOVED from the images they order, because they don't want to accidentally notice any lung nodules. That's crazy! And that's just one examp…

Yes, it is. You appear to be conflating my point of how healthcare is changing with regard to payment structures with clinical guidelines which tend to have potentially more subtleties. There are some areas of healthcare where it is very cut and dry what defines good healthcare management. These are where we've developed good reporting outcomes that tie closely to clinical and resource utilization outcomes from the p…

The medical field doesn't have the discipline to ignore signals that it knows are meaningless. That's what I'm driving at.

Also, healthcare absolutely sucks at pain management, specifically in being disciplined enough to say no to opioids.

Re: How Did Our Medical Notes Become So Useless?

#194
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your profession should not dictate your rights to your data.

No one is stopping you from accessing your data. The question is to whether you should be able to stop your doctor (or your emergency doctor) from accessing your medical data. Sounds like a bad idea.

just because something is a bad idea doesn't mean you shouldn't be allowed to do it.

Re: How Did Our Medical Notes Become So Useless?

#195
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. It's your private data and it's also your body! If you end up getting worse treatment due to not sharing data, it's on you. As an adult and the owner of my body, that's my right to decide for myself.

Quite surprised to see such strong opinions on this issue - I can obviously sympathise with a desire to privacy but personally hold faith in doctor confidentiality. More pressingly - how can a doctor provide the best care in the absence of records? Imagine trying to ship a bugfix for a complex system where you don't have the source code and the business owner is refusing to give you the documentation but will sue you…

> Quite surprised to see such strong opinions on this issue

you shouldn't be. to a certain group of people, it is particularly loathsome to be prohibited from doing things that can only hurt the person doing them. this is basically how we treat children.

a patient should be allowed to limit access to their medical records for pretty much any reason. an individual doctor should also be allowed to refuse to treat a patient who is unwilling to disclose part or all of their medical records; they may have valid liability concerns. but revealing your records should not be a precondition to accessing the entire field of medicine. what part of this do you have a problem with? you still get to deal with your doctors however you want.

Re: How Did Our Medical Notes Become So Useless?

#196
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not entirely convinced the UK/NHS should ever be used as a good example for handling medical notes, at least by today's standards. As a Brit who left the UK a while ago, I recently had cause to request my "medical records" from my former GP. Of course such data can presumably be requested via the UK's Data Protection Act, but the lack of any kind of standard process or checks really shocked me, given the care the…

Don’t worry, US medical practices will give you a big show about doing anything in the name of HIPPA. Rest assured, it is a show, and most of your information is fed in real time to a half dozen different entities whom you have never heard of. The people who sell prescription data provide it to the pharma company before your insurer even gets the claim.

Is the data anonymized when they send it? And is there anything I can read about this practice further? Not trying to challenge you, just curious.

Re: How Did Our Medical Notes Become So Useless?

#197
I worked at the VA for over 2 decades, including the transition from handwritten to electronic notes. Wow. When I retired, the nursing notes for a patient visit were usually 2-3X longer than the docs note. The nursing note was entirely populated by templated text created by a hierarchy of supervisory staff tasked with satisfying all regulatory requirements. The poor nurses would ask the patient a series of prompted questions, click on the appropriate box, and a page of templated text would emerge. Actually finding useful actionable info in the nursing notes was impossible, or close to impossible. The docs began to demand, reasonably, that actual patient problems identified by the nurse be put in a specific area of the note rather than randomly scattered throughout 4-8 pages of templated text (which without this demand could be randomly intercalated with such useful info as "pt c/o chest pain when walking, much worse", found on page 5 of 8.

The docs notes were, in many ways, even worse. The notes required manual typing, and many docs are not trained skilled touch typists. So the two-fingered part of the note was often very brief and succinct. The templated portions were huge - impressive reviews of systems where you could not really tell if the specific items had actually really been asked or if the template just vomited forth a page full of text for administrative review.

Make a doctor function as a data entry clerk and this is what happens.

Re: How Did Our Medical Notes Become So Useless?

#198

I strongly agree that EMRs are making this problem worse, not better. And doctors seem to hate quite ubiquitously the extra amount of documentation they have to do. While there is a lot of evidence in some areas that EMRs have improved quality of care and patients' lives, I don't think this is one of them.

The fundamental problem in my opinion is that these EMRs were forced on providers and hospitals rather than emerging organically by choice.

I fully support the use of EMRs as some ideal, but it should emerge as the best option not as something that was forced. The result was a lot of EMR systems that would have never been adopted if there wasn't added pressure from government regulations. I strongly believe that EMRs would look pretty different if they were adopted organically without regulation.

It's really astounding to me that the elephant in the room of healthcare regulation isn't discussed more in public discussions of cost. As a result we end up with EMRs where the tail wags the dog, lack of transparency, lack of competition, lack of choice, etc. etc. etc.

I keep hoping the weight of the edifice will cause the thing to implode as it becomes so obviously unsustainable, but it's as if more regulation just births more regulation.

Re: How Did Our Medical Notes Become So Useless?

#199

I deal with various EHRs every day of my life, and 4-digits-worth of providers. The primary barrier is that practice managers are working to get data standardized, but get pushback from the providers who are busy doing their jobs being doctors and not data scientists. Some EHRs can streamline via templates and workflow. Others don't. I've literally had practice admins not implement new practices that would document p…

Agreed that 95% correct (or even 99%) AI probably isn’t the solution here, I’m surprised to see so many startups doing AI/NLP for doctors’ notes

Re: How Did Our Medical Notes Become So Useless?

#200

One "solution" is sometimes to use speech-to-text. The mangled results would be hilarious if they weren't frightening.

I know some places have scribes (often students), and I wonder why they aren’t more common given how valuable doctors’ time must be
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