Chinese may take over Mombasa port: Ouko • Hacker News Board

Re: Chinese may take over Mombasa port: Ouko

#191

Post by blacksmith_tb » Wed, Dec 26, 2018, 5:53 PM UTC

sathackr wrote: post #184

kolikotime wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Invest in African growth businesses(stocks at the moment, African focused mutual markets). Purchase African products. Lobby your government/EU governments to continue AGOA(US)/open the door towards African food/crop imports (unlikely). And honestly, tourism, some great destinations on the continent, and a great way to actually spend in local economies. Africans don't need charity. The NGO industrial complex has faile…

I think the problem with the "West" and Africa, is that we view Africa as mostly a single unit, and not the individual countries that make up the continent. From a westerners prospective, African countries have a huge corruption issue, and years of "give-a-man-a-fish" charity from the West appears to have labeled westerners as someone to be taken advantage of and to get free handouts from. It's difficult to evaluate…

Your first point is spot-on (so much so that people have made things like this[1] just to point it out).

Your second is more complex, but the general principle of a rich visitor being shaken down is very, very old - after all, you clearly have the means to come visit, while the reverse is not generally the case.

1: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/24/africa-clinton

Re: Chinese may take over Mombasa port: Ouko

#192

Post by thegeomaster » Wed, Dec 26, 2018, 5:57 PM UTC

KaoruAoiShiho wrote: post #176

How does this happen, a website, literally created on 5 months ago, probably just for this article, hits the HN front page. If you google africastand it asks "do you mean africasand". OP how did you come across this article? Edit: my bad made a typo. Ignore the google part. But the post still stands.

It's "africanstand", not "africastand". When you google that, the website shows up.

Re: Chinese may take over Mombasa port: Ouko

#193

Post by AsyncAwait » Wed, Dec 26, 2018, 6:00 PM UTC

reaperducer wrote: post #165

baby wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Make America realize that helping other countries will benefit the world including the US in the long run. Or convince America that there is a whole continent that could become a powerful ally to the US when it will economically boom.

Make America realize that helping other countries will benefit the world including the US in the long run. America does realize this. It's why USAID, VOA, and other agencies spend billions of dollars each year for the last 60+ years building water systems, and swerage treatment plants, distributing medicine, teaching people better agriculture methods, stocking hospitals, supplying HIV/AIDS drugs to 80 million+ people…

> Much of this money is spent in the very nations, especially in the Middle East, that have significant populations that chant "Death to America" every time a television camera is around, then when the news crews go away, return to eating food supplied by the U.S. government.

Are you meaning to imply that donating food should buy the U.S. some kind of credit allowance to conduct drone strikes that kill mainly civilians? In many cases, the food they're donating is needed in the first place because of actions the U.S. themselves participates in, see the genocide in Yemen for example.

Also, it's funny that you mention DTA chants, but forget that there are plenty of lawmakers in the U.S. spewing similar rhetoric. After the attack in Iran, the response in the U.S. was basically "they deserved it".

Re: Chinese may take over Mombasa port: Ouko

#194

Post by zmw » Wed, Dec 26, 2018, 6:00 PM UTC

kazinator wrote: post #188

zmw wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This lets them say "See! the Chinese are worse!" Seriously? Even if one believes in this Chinese colonialism thing, there's no way in hell partial economic control is worse than genocides and slavery that accompanied European colonialism in the past.

That's a bit of a tu quoque fallacy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes

Unlike the fallacy you linked, which is comparing apples to oranges, I made a direct comparison of "colonialism" to colonialism, in response to a direct comparison of "colonialism" to colonialism. Not every comparison is whataboutism, you know.

Re: Chinese may take over Mombasa port: Ouko

#195

Post by late2part » Wed, Dec 26, 2018, 6:02 PM UTC

For those interested in the more nefarious paths these situations could take, you might read _Confessions of an Economic Hitman_. This books talks about how nation states and corporations can work together to create situations for global influence.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessions_of_an_Economic_H...

Re: Chinese may take over Mombasa port: Ouko

#196

Post by kazinator » Wed, Dec 26, 2018, 6:06 PM UTC

zmw wrote: post #194

kazinator wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a bit of a tu quoque fallacy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes

Unlike the fallacy you linked, which is comparing apples to oranges, I made a direct comparison of "colonialism" to colonialism, in response to a direct comparison of "colonialism" to colonialism. Not every comparison is whataboutism, you know.

The relevance can be clarified if we frame it like this: "My economic control in a foreign nation is okay because you're lynching negroes (or did so in the past)."

Re: Chinese may take over Mombasa port: Ouko

#197

Post by atomical » Wed, Dec 26, 2018, 6:06 PM UTC

detritus wrote: post #172

jnurmine wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you seriously claiming that the French (and/or EU) somehow orchestrated the Libyan civil war? Offtopic: You joined yesterday and have gained 160+ points already with only 7 comments. That is very impressive!

As someone who doesn't consider themself to be a bot - if that is your inference - I upvoted because i found the post particularly well-written and informative from someone 'on the ground' so to speak. - ed (also somewhat contrary to my preferred Euro-friendly narrative)

How do you know it's informative? Because it's well written?

Re: Chinese may take over Mombasa port: Ouko

#198

Post by r00fus » Wed, Dec 26, 2018, 6:08 PM UTC

afpx wrote: post #167

sah2ed wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They have been very effective in reducing poverty and improving infrastructure in Africa. I'm sure Joe Stiglitz, a Nobel prize winner in Economics, would disagree. In fact, he clearly articulated why in his book: Globalization and Its Discontents . "[It] is a book published in 2002 by the 2001 Nobel laureate Joseph E. Stiglitz. The book draws on Stiglitz's personal experience as chairman of the Council of Economic…

That’s called the Appeal to Authority Fallacy. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

It's not really; Stiglitz actually worked at the World Bank - and wrote a book about it.

Another book to read is "Confessions of an Economic Hitman". Both describe essentially what both the USA and China appear to be doing - increasing global power and influence using subtler means than gunboat diplomacy.

Re: Chinese may take over Mombasa port: Ouko

#199

Post by learc83 » Wed, Dec 26, 2018, 6:12 PM UTC

dm3730 wrote: post #130

raverbashing wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think when compared with Chinese imperialism, people will miss the US

> I think when compared with Chinese imperialism, people will miss the US Could you clarify which people you are thinking of and your specific meaning of what they would miss? I'm thinking about those historical track record. I'm thinking of those millions of Vietnamese and Cambodians whose lives were ended. I wonder about the millions more whose futures were ruined. I'm thinking about those millions of Iranians trap…

>I'm thinking of those millions of Vietnamese and Cambodians

China was involved in that as well. They supported North Vietnam and backed the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia. They even invaded Vietnam after the war.

>Could you clarify which people you are thinking of

It’s interesting that you mention Vietnam and Cambodia because 90% of Vietnamese and 85% of Cambodians surveyed believe the US has a positive impact on the region. The numbers are above 70% for most Asian countries outside of China [1].

Horrible things have happened under US dominance--the US has been directly responsible for some of them, but let’s not pretend that China in a similar position wouldn’t be much worse. Just look at how China treats its people internally--mass reeducation camps for political prisoners, censorship on a scale undreamed of outside of the minds of dystopian scifi writers, authoritarian leadership appointed for life. Imagine how they would behave if they become the dominant superpower. Their neighboring countries think that it would be worse. Most of Asia is terrified of Chinese military ascendancy.

Obviously most countries would prefer if the US didn't have so much power--provided someone like China doesn't come along to take their place. If the choice though is between China and the US, I think it's pretty clear which would be worse.

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2017/01/18/h...

Re: Chinese may take over Mombasa port: Ouko

#200

Post by aylmao » Wed, Dec 26, 2018, 6:16 PM UTC

fatjokes wrote: post #160

kolikotime wrote: post #63

West African American here (Ghanaian - American). This article actually isn't true, while the Kenyan Chinese pact that led to the construction of the Nairobi - Mombasa Port does have clauses related to penalties around lack of payment, there has been no actual announcement or any signs of China declaring possession of the Mombasa Port. In fact, the big issue in Mombasa right now is actually revolving around a Kenyan…

The echo chamber you mention doesn't simply exist here in the comments section, it's basically a narrative that's currently being pushed by the western media. I suspect at least a small part of it is motivated by guilt over European colonialism. This lets them say "See! the Chinese are worse!" No doubt this comment will earn me an accusation of being a Chinese gov't shill as well.

+1, plus it threatens global Western influence. Ever since Western colonialism took off, in spite of the eventual independence of the colonies, the West has had economic and thus a lot of political dominance all around the world.

China was the richest country in the world, and through drugs and war even it fell to the British.

Now that the world is slowly returning to a state that makes more sense-- with the bigger countries with lots of human and natural resources climbing back on top, the West needs to cling on to something. The narrative that "China is worse" sounds to me like "China is worse, thus it's better for everyone if we keep the world order as it is".

I think everyone knows this won't be the case. Population alone, China has more people than the US and Europe combined-- that's not only more productive potential, but as purchasing power increases, a bigger market for companies to operate in. Factor in a much slower, but potentially similar story for India, and I think there's not much the West in general can do but accept the world can't all depend on a single bank and monetary fund ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.