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Remind HN: Vote

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Re: Remind HN: Vote

#191

Post by orangecat »

jbooth wrote: post #170
hnal943 wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one has brought up socialism in this campaign at all. Ron Johnson has run a specific, issue oriented campaign. His major focus is stopping the run away spending of the Obama agenda. He entered the race when Obamacare passed, because he felt that was the last straw. Feingold on the other hand is standing by his vote for Obamacare. I haven't forgotten the disdainful smirk on his face when he addressed his enraged co…

Where were you guys when Medicare Part D passed? It's way worse for the deficit, and was a way bigger spending bill. Oh, wait, that was a Republican.. I get it.. This is how Rome fell - if beating your domestic enemies is more important to you than improving the country, you are hurting the country.

Where were you guys when Medicare Part D passed?

Libertarians were loudly protesting. To no effect of course, because Republicans were behind their guy and Democrats were primarily complaining that it wasn't expensive enough.

if beating your domestic enemies is more important to you than improving the country, you are hurting the country.

I agree completely. Please mention that to the President if you run into him: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE69929420101101

Re: Remind HN: Vote

#192

Post by mcantelon »

CWuestefeld wrote: post #127

Please, do vote if you understand the issues, and where the candidates stand. But otherwise, please DO NOT VOTE. Just because an idea makes you feel warm and fuzzy doesn't make it right. There are plenty of things in this world that are counter-intuitive, and if you're relying only on your beliefs , there's a good chance you'll get it wrong. If you've never taken a class or read a book on economics, please don't vote…

>If you've never taken a class or read a book on economics, please don't vote. ... If you've never taken a class or read a book on political philosophy, please don't vote.

If you're an elitist academic that thinks knowledge about how the world works can only be garnered via institutionalized knowledge, please don't vote.

If you're willing to recommend that lower classes, made up predominantly of marginalized races, opt out of a say in their future, please don't vote.

Re: Remind HN: Vote

#193

Post by vaksel »

protomyth wrote: post #182
vaksel wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the problem I have is that it's never a single state getting proportion. They always band together. So California with millions of voters become insignificant, when 10 states with combined total of 500,000 voters band together. That's why we have more subsidies for corn production than science research. I'm sorry, but 10 states in the boonies with no people, should not be able to dictate policy to California. Crap li…

Well, as a resident of one of the red states that has our budget under control (ND - surplus), I don't think California's problems are of our doing. Unions in California shouldn't dictate policy to other states (and it looks like the other states are going to foot CA's bill). If we didn't have the current system, only about 20 cities would be campaigned in for the Presidency. Also, given the bill a NY Rep tried to pa…

Funny you should say that since North Dakota is the second biggest leech in this country.

You guys get $2.03 for every dollar you send. (2nd highest in the nation after DC)

California could balance it's budgets too, if it got double what it paid in federal taxes every year.

Re: Remind HN: Vote

#194

Post by frobozz »

mbreese wrote: post #151
axod wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I would prefer a monarchy, or some merit based voting system - eg You get a vote if you can demonstrate you have the understanding to make informed decisions.

A monarchy, when you have a good monarch isn't bad. However, you tend to end up with these bloody conflicts every now and again over who gets to be the monarch. Merit might work, but it has the capability to discriminate against certain classes (even those who might otherwise make informed decisions). I might be able to accept a system where you have to perform some level of service to the state in order to gain a vo…

How would it discriminate against people who might make informed decisions? The only qualification is that you have the understanding required to do so.

Re: Remind HN: Vote

#195

Post by CWuestefeld »

jbooth wrote: post #159
CWuestefeld wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in a different state, but I wouldn't be caught dead voting for Feingold. I know none of your local issues, but I know that he's co-author of the McCain-Feingold Incumbency Protection Act, which gags those interested in the issues from educating the rest of the electorate. Apparently Sen. Feingold believes that it's better to have an ill-informed electorate, and that we shouldn't be able to use our 1st Amendmen…

Sorry that you've been brainwashhed. "Apparently Sen. Feingold believes that it's better to have an ill-informed electorate, and that we shouldn't be able to use our 1st Amendment rights to put a voice to our ideas, " Let me get you on the record here -- you actually think the various "Americans for American Americans" groups are contributing to the debate? You think these groups deserve a voice? Let me re-enact a li…

That's both a red herring and a straw man.

It's a straw man because not only does McCain-Feingold forbid behavior like you illustrate, but also perfectly reasonable advocacy. So the NRA can't say "don't vote for Mr. X because he's against the 2nd Amendment". Pro-choice people can't say "don't vote for Mr. Z because he's voted for blah blah". These are precisely the types of speech that the 1st Amendment was intended (in part) to protect, and McCain-Feingold eviscerates it.

It's a red herring, because it's attacking something that's not wrong anyway (and fails to attack what I believe you thing is wrong).

It fails to address the implied corruption, bribery, and lobbying. McCain-Feingold has nothing to do with that stuff, yet it's the central evil in your little play.

And the last line of your play: Americans for American Americans: "Senator X supports wasteful government spending and death panels" is not wrong. Every person has the right to put up a sign on his front door, or put up a web site, describing his own political views, and advocating for or against specific candidates. Every one of us also has the right to associate with who we wish, and in so doing, pool our funds to make that web site even spiffier, or buy a TV ad. I believe that your objection to this is completely content-based: you dislike the kinds of messages that are being commnunicated; you think they're dangerous, and want to stop them.

But even if I'm wrong, your argument otherwise serves to bolster my original point ("don't vote unless you know the issues"). We all have the responsibility to understand what's going on. We're supposed to be adults with a conscience and the ability to weigh and judge the merits. If you don't do so, you've got no business voting.

Re: Remind HN: Vote

#196

Post by Kisil »

CWuestefeld wrote: post #185
Jun8 wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand that your comments are partly in jest (I hope!), but still the basic idea expressed in them is very misguided, dangerous and wrong: Misguided, because one can argue that everyone acts according to their beliefs, even an economics professor. You cannot talk about a clear dichotomy between those who vote on their belief and those who vote on "rational principles". It's wrong because voting is an inherent c…

I understand that your comments are partly in jest Nope, 100% serious. It's wrong because voting is an inherent citizenship right; it cannot be made... I agree completely. In no way do I advocate any sort of qualification. That's a slippery slope the first step of which is incredibly steep. What I'm advocating is that people self-select. I wish we could each reflect personally, and try to determine whether we really…

Perhaps in an ideal world some people should self-select out of voting; I haven't thought enough about that ideal world to say. But HN in general, and this page in particular, is the wrong forum to push for such self-selection. I would be willing to bet that the average HN reader is better informed, and better qualified to understand that information, than the general population.

HN readers, please vote today.

Re: Remind HN: Vote

#197

Post by endtime »

mcantelon wrote: post #192
CWuestefeld wrote: post #127

Please, do vote if you understand the issues, and where the candidates stand. But otherwise, please DO NOT VOTE. Just because an idea makes you feel warm and fuzzy doesn't make it right. There are plenty of things in this world that are counter-intuitive, and if you're relying only on your beliefs , there's a good chance you'll get it wrong. If you've never taken a class or read a book on economics, please don't vote…

>If you've never taken a class or read a book on economics, please don't vote. ... If you've never taken a class or read a book on political philosophy, please don't vote. If you're an elitist academic that thinks knowledge about how the world works can only be garnered via institutionalized knowledge, please don't vote. If you're willing to recommend that lower classes, made up predominantly of marginalized races, o…

Yeah, reading books is terribly elitist.

Re: Remind HN: Vote

#198

Post by siculars »

CWuestefeld wrote: post #127

Please, do vote if you understand the issues, and where the candidates stand. But otherwise, please DO NOT VOTE. Just because an idea makes you feel warm and fuzzy doesn't make it right. There are plenty of things in this world that are counter-intuitive, and if you're relying only on your beliefs , there's a good chance you'll get it wrong. If you've never taken a class or read a book on economics, please don't vote…

Do you know that in NYC (at least) you are not required to show your ID when voting? Due principally to undue burden on the voter, as I understand. And here you are suggesting that if you do not have a particular level of knowledge on certain subjects then you should not vote.

"...if you're relying only on your beliefs..."

Of course, I would argue the exact opposite. Between any number of subjective opinions, is it not ones beliefs that enable you to make a decision?

"If you've never taken a class or read a book on economics, please don't vote."

Perhaps you should not vote because i believe that you, Sir, are out of your mind.

Re: Remind HN: Vote

#199

Post by CWuestefeld »

jimmyjim wrote: post #157
CWuestefeld wrote: post #127

Please, do vote if you understand the issues, and where the candidates stand. But otherwise, please DO NOT VOTE. Just because an idea makes you feel warm and fuzzy doesn't make it right. There are plenty of things in this world that are counter-intuitive, and if you're relying only on your beliefs , there's a good chance you'll get it wrong. If you've never taken a class or read a book on economics, please don't vote…

By virtue of suggesting the very specific texts that you have suggested you have in essence suggested voting for a candidate of a specific set of characteristics. I could very well in turn suggest another list of texts, to reach a differing conclusion. Seems much like a Catch-22 game. Therefore, please just vote. From your life experiences, what you believe in, what sounds good to you, or by whatever text is of your…

They were suggestions only. Feel free to suggest your own. I tried to pick a varied set (Mill, Locke, and Mises should each give you a somewhat different philosophy of government).

I'm not saying that you've got to have the same values as me. I'm saying that whatever your values are, you should (a) be able to support an argument about them; and (b) you should understand how the candidates relate to those issues.

I'm not saying whether Hayek or Keynes is right about the economy. I'm saying that if you don't know the difference between the two, you've got no business voting an opinion about how the economy should be handled.

Re: Remind HN: Vote

#200

Post by mcantelon »

endtime wrote: post #197
mcantelon wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If you've never taken a class or read a book on economics, please don't vote. ... If you've never taken a class or read a book on political philosophy, please don't vote. If you're an elitist academic that thinks knowledge about how the world works can only be garnered via institutionalized knowledge, please don't vote. If you're willing to recommend that lower classes, made up predominantly of marginalized races, o…

Yeah, reading books is terribly elitist.

That's not what was stated. Suggesting one is ignorant of how politics works, and shouldn't vote, unless one has read a book on political philosophy is, absolutely, elitist.
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