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American Is Killed by Bow and Arrow on Remote Indian Island

nytimes.com

191–197 of 197 posts

Re: American Is Killed by Bow and Arrow on Remote Indian Island

#191
post #144

It is fascinating - and unsettling - how many people react to this on range of "ha-ha, stupid medieval idiot, deserved to be murdered" to "typical American!". I know some cultures don't value human life as high as we in the Western culture do, and murdering people for trespassing on some taboo barely comprehensible to outsiders is not very far from our culture either. But what I see is a person trying to do a subject…

Why on earth would the nationality or religion of the guy matter? Wouldn't change my view that he was an arrogant idiot choosing not to believe local custom should apply to him. Him being atheist or Buddhist wouldn't change that. He chose to follow the well trod path of believing them not "civilised enough" and wanting to force change. Doesn't really matter what change, does it? It's a shame he chose to waste his lif…

> Why on earth would the nationality or religion of the guy matter?

Seeing the comments, it clearly does.

> Why does whether he meant harm matter?

That's kinda how we do morals around here? We treat a person that intentionally means harm to another person (e.g. if somebody shoots another person with intent to kill) as morally negative, and we usually treat actions that did not mean any harm with much less moral scorn, even if they led to bad consequences - e.g. if a car accident happens through no fault of anybody and still there's a fatality, we treat it as much less morally repugnant than, say, unsuccessful murder attempt. Moreover, in criminal case, to prove guilt, you usually need two things - actus reus (bad deed) and mens rea (guilty mind). Intent matters there too.

> It would not matter to a crocodile had he chosen to wander into a zoo enclosure.

People aren't crocodiles though. People are subject to moral judgement. That said, if somebody wanted to feed a crocodile that he genuinely believed is starving and in dire need of food, and the crocodile killed him, I don't think the person would deserve the kind of derisive mockery we see here.

> No. He was killed subject to the laws and customs of an isolationist territory

Yes, he was murdered. If you follow your moral relativist stance, you'd very quickly arrive at the conclusion that virtually every atrocity in human history - from ancient genocides to the Holocaust - is completely fine and justified, since it was OK by the rules of whoever perpetrated it. I don't think you really believe that.

Re: American Is Killed by Bow and Arrow on Remote Indian Island

#192
post #144

It is fascinating - and unsettling - how many people react to this on range of "ha-ha, stupid medieval idiot, deserved to be murdered" to "typical American!". I know some cultures don't value human life as high as we in the Western culture do, and murdering people for trespassing on some taboo barely comprehensible to outsiders is not very far from our culture either. But what I see is a person trying to do a subject…

"I know some cultures don't value human life as high as we in the Western culture do."

I'm sorry, I feel a general agreement with the rest of your post but this line is too much a false claim to ignore. If we're going to generalize on Western culture, I would say that that has a habit of only valuing lives that are Western or lives that are white.

It took decades for there to be even mild acknowledgement that Thanksgiving celebrates the genocide of millions. You revere people like Churchill or Obama who are responsible for countless third world lives being lost. A single American dying somewhere warrants more attention in the West than a dozen brown lives.

Had this American caused the death of 5-6 islanders with disease, I wonder whether it would be front page news. Please don't give me this claim that the West values life more. It is we in the East who suffer the bulk of the casualties of your Western wars.

Re: American Is Killed by Bow and Arrow on Remote Indian Island

#193
post #144

It is fascinating - and unsettling - how many people react to this on range of "ha-ha, stupid medieval idiot, deserved to be murdered" to "typical American!". I know some cultures don't value human life as high as we in the Western culture do, and murdering people for trespassing on some taboo barely comprehensible to outsiders is not very far from our culture either. But what I see is a person trying to do a subject…

"I know some cultures don't value human life as high as we in the Western culture do." I'm sorry, I feel a general agreement with the rest of your post but this line is too much a false claim to ignore. If we're going to generalize on Western culture, I would say that that has a habit of only valuing lives that are Western or lives that are white. It took decades for there to be even mild acknowledgement that Thanksg…

> I would say that that has a habit of only valuing lives that are Western or lives that are white.

That's obviously not true. Ever heard about abolitionist movement, for example? Are you claiming no Western culture persons supported movements like civil rights movement, BLM, etc.? This claim flies right in the face of obvious historical and present facts.

It sounds like you are just parroting some fashionable overgeneralisations - which may be fine to shout on a protest, where the goal is to push your point and getting a little overboard is ok, but it can't be taken seriously as a logical argument.

Surely, there are Western racists - as there are racists and xenophobes in very many cultures. But no guiding principle of modern Western culture claims that only lives of persons with pale pinkish skin are valuable. Don't confuse propaganda with facts.

> It took decades for there to be even mild acknowledgement that Thanksgiving celebrates the genocide of millions

Why acknowledge an obvious falsity? Literally nobody celebrating Thanksgiving is celebrating "genocide of millions" (ok, I don't know, maybe you personally know people that do, but nobody else does). Surely, events that gave birth to Thanksgiving also led to some very appalling atrocities (if you bother to dig, atrocities are buried in history of virtually every country, and certainly in the history of many indigenous American tribes as well - you don't think Europeans invented war for them and they never knew what it is before that, do you?). But that is decidedly not what is celebrated on Thanksgiving. So only a propagandist completely detached from the facts would claim that it is what is celebrated.

> A single American dying somewhere warrants more attention in the West than a dozen brown lives.

In US, yes. In UK, that would be single Briton. In Russia, single Russian. In Japan, single Japanese. In Philippines, single Phllippinian. Of course people care about people that are close to them more than they care about abstract people they never saw and have nothing in common with. This is common to virtually every culture on Earth - if there's a culture that cares absolutely equally about every single human, I've never heard about it. You neither, probably.

> Had this American caused the death of 5-6 islanders with disease,

But he hadn't. Instead, he was murdered. Yet you ignore what happened while concentrating on what hypothetically could happen.

> Please don't give me this claim that the West values life more

I will. If an person from that tribe comes to a Western country, maybe he wouldn't be treated nicely. Maybe he would not be even admitted (he probably has no papers and no visa). Maybe he would be subjected to a treatment much worse than a common Westerner. But he won't be murdered on sight.

> It is we in the East who suffer the bulk of the casualties of your Western wars.

If you talk about any wars before WWII, most of Western wars happened in the West, and thus West suffered most of the casualties, naturally. WWII is impossible to call a Western war, though, given what happened in the Pacific theater, for example.

Re: American Is Killed by Bow and Arrow on Remote Indian Island

#194
post #144

It is fascinating - and unsettling - how many people react to this on range of "ha-ha, stupid medieval idiot, deserved to be murdered" to "typical American!". I know some cultures don't value human life as high as we in the Western culture do, and murdering people for trespassing on some taboo barely comprehensible to outsiders is not very far from our culture either. But what I see is a person trying to do a subject…

The tribe has been isolated from the world for 100s of years and has no immunity to many of the diseases that are common now. The Blockade is for their protection and he was endangering 120-150 people for promoting his religion. It's same as someone trying to use machine gun on a crowd of people I don't think anyone would have any sympathy for that person if he is killed before he can start shooting.

It sounds to me like the danger of a single contact with a healthy person is a bit overrated. While theoretically it could happen that this particular person carries some disease strain that would be new for last 100 years and deadly to people on the island, the probability of this for a single contact with a single person is IMHO not that high.

> It's same as someone trying to use machine gun on a crowd of people

No, it's not the same. Christian proselytizers may be annoying, but believe me, machine gun is much worse. If you are given the choice, do choose the former.

Re: American Is Killed by Bow and Arrow on Remote Indian Island

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thought experiment: imagine it was a buddhist monk. I am sure the reaction here in the comments would be at least slightly different.

Nope. Idiot breaking national law and against all warnings tries to indoctrinate with religion is both “self-righteous” and unethical. Doesn’t matter which religion.

How about a Greenpeace protestor trying to prevent the locals from hunting the animals or harvesting the forest?

Re: American Is Killed by Bow and Arrow on Remote Indian Island

#196
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They fired arrows on him on his first attempt that didn't hit, he fled, and kept coming back to trespass over several days because an imaginary man told him to. The bad part is he was probably brainwashed into the religion as a young child, but I don't know that for sure.

>The bad part is he was probably brainwashed into the religion as a young child Why do, apparently intelligent, people automatically throw out 'brainwashed' 'cult' etc when it comes to religion. Is it improbable that any given religion is actually correct? Sure. Do you know what else is improbable? That 13.8 billion years ago a single event occurred that spawned an incalculable amount of events that allowed for you a…

> If someone wants to believe in the God of Abraham, the Spaghetti Monster, that we have free will, that we are nothing but accidental chemical arrangements in a cold and uncaring universe, why do you feel the need to lash out and label them as 'brainwashed' or 'part of a cult' or 'an idiot' or 'superstitious'. If they aren't directly hurting you, who cares?

People brought up into it from the time they were a baby don't get a fair shot to evaluate it.

Re: American Is Killed by Bow and Arrow on Remote Indian Island

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think he implies americans are more stupid than europeans nowadays #trump #mormons #altright #bigots. We dont really have that in europe Edit: "some" americans of course.

That's right, anti-immigration sentiment, nationalists, and neo-nazis are unique to the US. https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2018/09/10/right-wi... Brexit, chemnitz riots - those are all American...

No but evangelism is (nowadays)
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