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How the Finnish survive without small talk

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Re: How the Finnish survive without small talk

#191

Post by reitanqild »

nyc111 wrote: post #184
reitanqild wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But it does not make sense to violate personal spaces of millions of people for the possibility that one blind person will be in the train. What do you mean by "Violate personal spaces"? > I never encountered a blind commuter but I'm sure they exist. One reason might be if bo effort wss made to make public transport easy to use for people with disabilities.

I was referring to @fi358's comment: > Many of us Finns find it annoying as it is against > local customs (it resembles situation where somebody > comes too close to my personal space). This constant > chit-chat prevents me concentrating on my own thoughts. > I wouldn't mind if they would talk about some important > things or keep their chit-chat short, but I don't want > to be exposed to this kind of noise about tri…

Ok, mostly makes sense to me.

This part however still sticks out IMO:

> Like fi358, I consider subjecting someone to unwanted noise to be same as violating their personal space by coming too close to them.

I'd say there's a fairly huge difference between making noise outside my house (or worse inside my house) and making automatic announcements on a bus.

When traveling in the public we have to live with other people.

Re: How the Finnish survive without small talk

#192

Post by nyc111 »

reitanqild wrote: post #191
nyc111 wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was referring to @fi358's comment: > Many of us Finns find it annoying as it is against > local customs (it resembles situation where somebody > comes too close to my personal space). This constant > chit-chat prevents me concentrating on my own thoughts. > I wouldn't mind if they would talk about some important > things or keep their chit-chat short, but I don't want > to be exposed to this kind of noise about tri…

Ok, mostly makes sense to me. This part however still sticks out IMO: > Like fi358, I consider subjecting someone to unwanted noise to be same as violating their personal space by coming too close to them. I'd say there's a fairly huge difference between making noise outside my house (or worse inside my house) and making automatic announcements on a bus. When traveling in the public we have to live with other people.

> When traveling in the public we have to live with other people.

I agree. But in the case of the announcements, it's not the other passengers who are making the noise but a huge and mindless bureaucracy who makes the announcements only because it can. The bureaucrats or decision makers do not use public transportation and they don’t have to listen to it everyday. The trains or buses come with the technology to make announcements and managers activate it. Passengers are not asked if they want or need such announcements.

I remember subway in New York in the 80's. They were filthy, covered with graffiti, no air conditioning... but there were no recorded announcements. The conductor would make announcements if he felt like it. There is a huge difference between a live human being making the announcement and a robotic voice repeating the same thing over and over again. I remember getting in those hot and dirty trains and reading my book even if I had to stand up. You can block out human voice easily but not a recorded synthetic announcement.

Also these announcements are useless. They serve no purpose. It's not the train's duty to tell passengers the stop they need to get off. It's the duty of the passenger to know where to get out. It's no big deal if a passenger misses his stop.

But it is a huge deal to me if I cannot read my book during my commute. If I'm in the train 2 hours every day, the bureaucrats are stealing 2 hours of good reading time from me. Why? There is no reason.

Imagine traveling in a quiet train everyday! What a great feeling. I would look forward to such a commute because I can work best in busses and trains.

Sorry for the rant. But to me, these recorded announcements are one of the absurdest things in city living.

Re: How the Finnish survive without small talk

#193

Post by [deleted] »

Balgair wrote: post #131
illuminati1911 wrote: post #7

(I’m a Finn) I didn’t know what small talk was until I went to study abroad. Most of my foreign classmates often asked me things like ”how are you doing?” etc. and when I literally answered them what I had been up to recently they were very confused. ”Dude...no need to tell your life story, just say ’good’ and that’s it” I replied ”Why do you ask a question if you don’t care about the answer?” I learned the hard way,…

Semi-related: My uncle grew up speaking Gaelic and learned English in his later teens and has become a successful musician, doing a lot of touring. He mentioned to me, over a few glasses, that the language of the US is Sports, not English. The doormen at hotels, the roadies, the servers in restaurants, the cashiers, the flight attendants, other musicians, etc. all of them 'spoke sports.' In his experience, if you sta…

[deleted]

Re: How the Finnish survive without small talk

#194

Post by [deleted] »

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #147
klodolph wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some things are universal but a shopkeeper making smalltalk is not creepy in the US, even if it is in other countries. It's a cultural thing. One of the benefits of smalltalk in shops is that if you have a question you don't have to interrupt anybody. You're already having a conversation with a clerk so you might as well ask a question about the merchandise. I don't have to get anybody's attention. I'm not advocating…

> The idea that smalltalk is "feigned" doesn't make sense to me Ever talk to an American waiter about this? Often they will complain about their customers and how much they hate them, but they still have to be smiley and make small talk because 1) they feel they won’t get tips without it, and 2) their bosses insist on it.

[deleted]

Re: How the Finnish survive without small talk

#195

Post by drb91 »

bluetomcat wrote: post #41
Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #25

It is strange that this article sees Finland as an odd man out in terms of customer-service interactions, and it suggests the USA or the UK is the norm. I have lived in both southern Europe (where people are claimed to be more extrovert) and in Finland, and generally interacting with a "barista" or cashier in both places is exactly the same, consisting of only the words "Hello" and "Thanks". In the USA one might get…

Customer-service interactions as they are in the US are not popular and are considered obtrusive even in more extrovert cultures such as southern and eastern Europe. Small talk there generally takes place between colleagues and friends.

Hell they’re even creepy and draining in the US.

If you work in retail, you can see middle age white women get away with behavior (entitlement, rage, abuse) that would normally get cops called were they a different person. Customer service in the US is just straight broken.

Re: How the Finnish survive without small talk

#196

Post by fi358 »

stevekemp wrote: post #89
buboard wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i find the british are pretty chatty, even when its freezing. Yes, warm weather -> people being outdoors -> eventually chat more (and don't do much work)

As somebody from the UK who moved to Finland, there's a big difference in the degrees of "Freezing". Sure in the UK somebody might say they're freezing at -5, but in Finland I've been as cold as -25, even in the South. (People in Finland are better dressed for the weather, and houses are all pretty new, so they're generally well-insulated. But there's probably some truth in the idea that talking to strangers becomes…

As a Finn, I would say that people at least in Finland tend to be more closed during winter than during summer. I think I saw some study where they seemed to notice this kind of pattern as well, but I think the study was done outside Finland.

Re: How the Finnish survive without small talk

#197

Post by BrandoElFollito »

Isamu wrote: post #124
illuminati1911 wrote: post #7

(I’m a Finn) I didn’t know what small talk was until I went to study abroad. Most of my foreign classmates often asked me things like ”how are you doing?” etc. and when I literally answered them what I had been up to recently they were very confused. ”Dude...no need to tell your life story, just say ’good’ and that’s it” I replied ”Why do you ask a question if you don’t care about the answer?” I learned the hard way,…

As an American, I had to learn the same thing. Only as a young kid, but I specifically remember this experience. I think most people forget this, that you have to learn that a lot of conversation is not literal, it is opaque code for something else. I am still a pretty literal conversationalist but I can translate fluently. A friend had a great anecdote about his first meal with his girlfriend's family. The father as…

I do not think they are shocked. When you are used to speak indirectly, the direct way is not that difficult.

The other way (as witnessed in your friend's story) can be.

Re: How the Finnish survive without small talk

#198

Post by henriquemaia »

wolfgke wrote: post #167
Isamu wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an American, I had to learn the same thing. Only as a young kid, but I specifically remember this experience. I think most people forget this, that you have to learn that a lot of conversation is not literal, it is opaque code for something else. I am still a pretty literal conversationalist but I can translate fluently. A friend had a great anecdote about his first meal with his girlfriend's family. The father as…

Story time: At a party of math students, the following dialogue happened between classmates (names changed): Alice: "Do you know whether Carol will come to the party?" Bob: "She will come, but somewhat later. I think she will be there in half an hour." Alice: "I am not interested in whether she will come or not. If I wanted to know that information, I would simply have asked you whether she will come and if you did n…

So, if I'm understanding this correctly, the right flow of conversation, from the point of view of Alice, would be like this:

> Alice: "Do you know whether Carol will come to the party?"

Bob: Yes, I know. (or No, I don't know).

Awkward silence. What a strange way to conduct a conversation.

Re: How the Finnish survive without small talk

#199

Post by pimeys »

dingaling wrote: post #65
illuminati1911 wrote: post #7

(I’m a Finn) I didn’t know what small talk was until I went to study abroad. Most of my foreign classmates often asked me things like ”how are you doing?” etc. and when I literally answered them what I had been up to recently they were very confused. ”Dude...no need to tell your life story, just say ’good’ and that’s it” I replied ”Why do you ask a question if you don’t care about the answer?” I learned the hard way,…

How do Finns flirt without smalltalk? Just jump straight to 'do you find me attractive?' and 'do you want to date?' Though admittedly I used to work with an Irish guy whose sole chat-up line was 'are ye ridin?' and who had considerable success.

Met my American partner in a party in Berlin, talked a couple of hours about philosophy and been happy together for some years now. Although not living in Finland I can still call myself a Finn and it wasn't that hard.

PS we don't believe in smalltalk... :)

Re: How the Finnish survive without small talk

#200

Post by jnurmine »

Bartweiss wrote: post #114
SilasX wrote: post #99

Random thought: I can't find it, so how do they translate the intro to Return of the Jedi? Moff Jerjerrod: Lord Vader. This is an unexpected pleasure. We are honored by your presence. Darth Vader: You may dispense with the pleasantries, Commander. I am here to put you back on schedule. Is Jerjerrod's line something they wouldn't say? Would it be confusing that someone would need to tell someone to skip the pleasantri…

I'm curious whether this would actually be odd for Finns? Jerjerrod's line is phatic, but I think it's less small talk than deference or avoidance. The message is something like "I'm surprised and concerned someone with your status is involved in my work, please don't hurt me", which seems fairly universal.

In the film it's translated like they say in English, if I recall it right. But if it were from real life from after 1950-1960s (when people used the third person as a polite form, still happens but rare) the dialogue would be like this:

Darth Vader enters. Moff stops what he is doing, turns toward Vader and looks at him. Nothing is said, it is obvious to both that this is a surprise for Moff. There is a pause. Moff is waiting for Vader to indicate the purpose of this visit. It goes without saying that there is some purpose or Vader would not be here as he does not make courtesy calls; if he did, he would probably have brought a bouquet of flowers or a bottle of wine or such. If Vader would not say anything for a longer time, Moff would ask. But here Vader says: "I am here to put you back on schedule". Moff nods. Or at most says "Understood/OK". If Moff does not agree with the assessment that he is late, then he could start negotiating the issue, but as I recall from the film, he was aware of being late, so what is the point of arguing a fact.

In an older time, I think Moff would have said "Lord Vader" to acknowledge him. Otherwise the dialogue would have gone more or less as above.

That's my take of it, at least.

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