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Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

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Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#191

Post by jstanley »

jimmaswell wrote: post #97
NeedMoreTea wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See, now I take the opposite view. Denmark may have some fairly onerous taxes, but that seems to be more than made up for by the quality of life, healthcare, education and so on. I have two good friends who moved from UK to Denmark, both high earners with families, neither would consider returning to the UK for a millisecond. As UK austerity continues and Brexit nears I'm thinking of it myself. The USA's ridiculously…

Is a tax a subsidy if you personally find it too low? I find it completely worthwhile "subsidizing" personal vehicles. Everything else just feels oppressive in comparison (barring scenarios like bicycling being faster than the gridlock in Manhattan). Quality of life seems much better to me not being forced into transit or having to bike everywhere, so it makes sense to me for the government to invest in it. How big w…

FWIW, a Ford Escort is not a tiny car to anyone not from the US.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#192

Post by dsfyu404ed »

ska wrote: post #170
lsiunsuex wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the growl / sound / smell. The ability to modify, upgrade, "wrench on a car on the weekend" the ability to get beat on the track 1 weekend, drop a couple grand on new parts the next, then go back and beat them the following weekend. car shows and seeing a super charged mustang or camaro or twin turbos or something completely different someone came up with an idea for and built. the same way us programmers tinker and…

To be fair, it's quite likely you'll be able to keep doing all these things for a long time. You may not be able to drive your ICE car to the track though, might have to trailer it.

>You may not be able to drive your ICE car to the track though, might have to trailer it.

Owning vehicle you have to trailer to the track is kind of like owning guns and using them to hunt in England. Yeah you can do it but all the red tape and cost results in practically only the landed gentry being able to justify such a costly hobby.

That's really not the same.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#193

Post by olivermarks »

bluGill wrote: post #185
olivermarks wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Delivering high voltage to recharge the amperage these batteries need is a whole different grid in remote areas to delivering 240v for light bulbs and fridges. Separately Norway is one of the richest countries on the planet thanks to its offshore oil. Their sovereign fund dwarfs Saudi Arabia in comparison so maybe they currently can cannibalize that revenue to build a supergrid. China is building an ultra high voltag…

I don't know what the situation is in Europe, but in the US farmers use a lot of power. They have welders and other such tools that can draw 50 amps or more. The motors for their drying fans are drawing 20 amps each (and several of them can run at once). Note that the above amp figures are at 240 volts just like power in Europe, not the lower 120 we use for lights and fridges.

continuous draw for hundreds of thousands of batteries is vastly more than this example

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#194

Post by NeedMoreTea »

jimmaswell wrote: post #97
NeedMoreTea wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See, now I take the opposite view. Denmark may have some fairly onerous taxes, but that seems to be more than made up for by the quality of life, healthcare, education and so on. I have two good friends who moved from UK to Denmark, both high earners with families, neither would consider returning to the UK for a millisecond. As UK austerity continues and Brexit nears I'm thinking of it myself. The USA's ridiculously…

Is a tax a subsidy if you personally find it too low? I find it completely worthwhile "subsidizing" personal vehicles. Everything else just feels oppressive in comparison (barring scenarios like bicycling being faster than the gridlock in Manhattan). Quality of life seems much better to me not being forced into transit or having to bike everywhere, so it makes sense to me for the government to invest in it. How big w…

> Is a tax a subsidy if you personally find it too low?

That could be an interesting discussion. In effect it could be.

On transportation, I'm more for having a level playing field, and discouraging polluters. More so since I've learnt of climate change. To give a UK example the government pays for roads, but not rails - that's a subsidy, yet most would agree the railways need more investment to increase capacity.

I'm happy discouraging individually polluting cars and promoting transport choices - buses, trams and trains, even if I have to pay a little more tax. I'd like to see investment to get more services, more routes, better timetables, adding cycle routes etc. Not just in London. More like the Netherlands for instance. As a car owner I have often taken a bus or train as the better choice thanks to not needing to find or pay parking or be able to have a night out and a few drinks. The UK can't just keep throwing more one occupant vehicles at our increasingly gridlocked roads.

I realise that can't work as easily in the US given how far you built everything around the car. It would take a lot of work to get back to balance or create viable and appealing transport that isn't seen as something you're forced into.

As to what car, at this point I have no memory other than it being a US only make (Chevy maybe), my first US trip was late 80s early 90s. It was referred to as "standard" size before we flew out. I brought UK expectations to that, where a hire would be compact (smaller than Ford Escort, probably a Ford Fiesta), standard would maybe be a BMW 3 series (of the 90s - everything keeps getting bigger!) or Toyota Corola, then large and luxury choices. What I got was something similar in style and size to a NYC cab as seen on so many movies but with a nicer interior. Turns out they're bloody enormous! Thankfully so are US parking spaces. :)

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#195

Post by Symbiote »

synecdoche wrote: post #178
eanzenberg wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, production of cars (and consumerism in general) is extremely bad for carbon emissions and for the environment. Carbon emissions from the production of 1 car generally rival the lifetime emissions from the tailpipe [1]. If you have no choice but to replace an old car for new then sure, get a more efficient one. If you're replacing cars every 3 years like an average westerner, given the age of cars I see…

This is why I consider my 1990 Volvo a comparatively environmentally friendly car. Very reliable and much cheaper to maintain and repair than a new electronics laden alternative.

However, it's not great for local air quality.

If you live in the countryside and rarely visit towns, it's a reasonable choice. If you regularly drive slowly through a city, it's awful!

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#196

Post by stale2002 »

munificent wrote: post #98
NickM wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think all the bastardized carbon accounting, market based solutions are on average quite bad. I'm curious, do you think the whole idea of a market-based solution is bad, or do you just think that actual real-world implementations have been lacking so far? I mean, it seems to me that if you tax emissions strongly and uniformly enough, then at some point it has to have an impact. I think existing schemes have just be…

> it seems to me that if you tax emissions strongly and uniformly enough, then at some point it has to have an impact. One way to look at that is that you're saying any market-based solution strong enough to be effective is indistinguishable from an outright ban. We could, for example, discourage smoking by putting a $500 tax on each pack of cigarettes. But at that point, you may as well stop pretending and ban it ou…

You are missing one big advantage of market based solutions. They raise revenue.

For every dollar that is raised from taxing gasoline, is another dollar that can be used paying for social programs or whatever.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#197

Post by maaaats »

PopeDotNinja wrote: post #26

I went to Denmark last year and spent two weeks driving all over the countryside, and likely would have been difficult to reach with an electric car. Many of the places I visited would not have been accessible via public transit. I'm curious how future generations will reach remote places as we move away from fossil fuels. BTW, I loved Denmark :)

I biked through Denmark a few years back. It's a really small country. So a modern electric car would need like one stop to recharge in the middle somewhere?

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#198

Post by kalleboo »

hydrox24 wrote: post #171
FullyFunctional wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consumerism is bad for the planet, 100% true. However the "every 3 years like an average westerner" remark needs citation. In the context of the article (Denmark) it is certainly not true. Cars are so expensive (the 180% tax is absolutely real - I've paid it) that people hold on to cars longer and buy used more. In fact, the number of people with zero cars would be hard to believe if you come from California. Alas, t…

> (the car tax is) paid for by people in suburbia who _have_ to own a car to survive. I have been wondering for a little while now if the extreme libertarian position on private roads has been vindicated. I am not sure yet, but it seems possible where once it was ridiculous. Starting with (let us say) World war two, cities and states built out substantial, publicly funded roads and road networks in order to connect u…

Japan has a majority- privatized highway network, funding it requires tolls way higher than would be politically feasible in any western country. Gas and tolls make taking the bullet train cheaper for some distances if you're alone (the equation changes if you load up your family).

I live here and have to pay the tolls but I still prefer it from a "user pays" justice POV.

It doesn't have to be privatized though - Singapore is introducing a GPS-distance-based congestion charge on their roads ("ERP 2" if you want to Google it)

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#199

Post by ska »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #192
ska wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, it's quite likely you'll be able to keep doing all these things for a long time. You may not be able to drive your ICE car to the track though, might have to trailer it.

>You may not be able to drive your ICE car to the track though, might have to trailer it. Owning vehicle you have to trailer to the track is kind of like owning guns and using them to hunt in England. Yeah you can do it but all the red tape and cost results in practically only the landed gentry being able to justify such a costly hobby. That's really not the same.

I don't think that's a fair comparison. A lot of track vehicles used today are dedicated, and not necessarily expensive.

Fundamentally there are difficult compromises to make a vehicle behave well on the street and track, after all - you can often be cheaper overall to have a daily driver and a track car/bike, and make fewer compromises. Also spend less of your time changing tires :)

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#200

Post by Symbiote »

olivermarks wrote: post #82
rcMgD2BwE72F wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's more widely distributed than electricity?

Delivering high voltage to recharge the amperage these batteries need is a whole different grid in remote areas to delivering 240v for light bulbs and fridges. Separately Norway is one of the richest countries on the planet thanks to its offshore oil. Their sovereign fund dwarfs Saudi Arabia in comparison so maybe they currently can cannibalize that revenue to build a supergrid. China is building an ultra high voltag…

Denmark doesn't really have "remote areas" by the standards of large countries.

Here's a map of the high voltage power grid. I don't think anywhere is more than 50km from a transmission line.

https://en.energinet.dk/-/media/9160AAB5C484432399767220B78D...

The increase will be gradual, and no doubt the power grid company is already planning for it.

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