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YouTube's tendency to push everyday users toward politically extreme content

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Re: YouTube's tendency to push everyday users toward politically extreme content

#191
post #23

This was addressed more broadly in "We're building a dystopia just to make people click on ads" by Zeynep Tufekci on TED. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15891014 She remarked that Youtube's recommendation system invariably pushes people towards more extreme views on anything , not just politics. Interested in vegetarianism? Here's something about veganism. She has a hypothesis it works this way because the goal…

More and more I find people who have done what I do; I don't watch TV "news" anymore and ignore almost every "news" article or posting online. Unless the headline might be a topic I'm specifically interested in and think it affects me I don't give it the time.

It's all tabloid news now; calf born with two heads, Grandma abducted by aliens, tells all! It a consequence of the death of journalism in my opinion. We're all worse off.

Re: YouTube's tendency to push everyday users toward politically extreme content

#192

I use incognito mode for probably close to half of the YouTube videos I watch, as a defense against the algorithm. That technique, plus freely using the "not interested" button, has actually resulted in a pretty good experience.

I actually want youtube to recommend me videos, because it recommends me stuff i'm interested in a good deal of the time. I can keep it fairly clear of toxic content in the same way i can keep my garden fairly clear of weeds: constant vigilance.

Re: YouTube's tendency to push everyday users toward politically extreme content

#193
post #183
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt that the general mass of people with "extreme" political beliefs do so out of thinking that "their side" is better. It is that some positions are so fundamentally indefensible for them that there is no middle ground, no compromise possible since they are contradicting and irreconcilable. And there are some of those fundamental issues. Basic human rights are not up for discussion or compromise for a lot of peo…

Could I summarise that with this alternative phrasing?: Instead of “five ways my team is awesome and five ways your team sucks”, you’re saying the average person is more like “Five ways your team sucks and no that guy is not my team true Scotsman true Scotsman”? I could buy that.

>“Five ways your team sucks and no that guy is not my team true Scotsman true Scotsman”?

"Five ways your team is pure evil" but yes.

Re: YouTube's tendency to push everyday users toward politically extreme content

#194

I got frustrated with the Youtube recommendation system, and built a search engine of videos I scraped: https://www.findlectures.com I'm relying primarily on trusted recommendations - if someone I trust likes a speaker, I'll index channels where they speak. This doesn't scale well, but it has made for a tool that works really well for doing research.

Have you written about the challenges involved in this? Like does yt allow it? What do you index exactly? The implementation? Would be very interesting reading. There used to a few yt aggregrators around. I think the most successful was whatever became youtube kids (someone correct that please).

Re: YouTube's tendency to push everyday users toward politically extreme content

#195

What is "radical"? At one point in history, the suggestion that you would vote for your leader was "radical". Giving the vote to women was once considered "radical", etc etc

How about encouraging others in demonizing, targetting and killing emergency workers/first responders. Seems pretty radical. Yet it's becomming more and more normal to amplify voices of freaks who do this on social media.

I'd rather not for this relativism of "what's radical?" to spread too much, because you can justify pretty much anything with it.

Re: YouTube's tendency to push everyday users toward politically extreme content

#196
post #23

This was addressed more broadly in "We're building a dystopia just to make people click on ads" by Zeynep Tufekci on TED. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15891014 She remarked that Youtube's recommendation system invariably pushes people towards more extreme views on anything , not just politics. Interested in vegetarianism? Here's something about veganism. She has a hypothesis it works this way because the goal…

I think the answer lay almost entirely with echo chambers. These exist not only in the digital world, but even increasingly in the real world as people connect to people through digital filtering. Vegetarianism is a good example. Many, though not all, vegetarians are going to be going in that direction due to some form of objection to how animals are treated. But when you surround them with nothing but other people w…

> The whole thing is people need to surround themselves with a good number of people they disagree with on things. But this is not an easy thing to do, and so most people do not.

Exactly. Except that you don't need to surround yourself with people you disagree with, so much as with opinions and points of view that differ fundamentally from yours. And this constitutes the basic argument against the new censorship ostensibly targeting hate speech.

Re: YouTube's tendency to push everyday users toward politically extreme content

#197

As a content creator it's very quickly apparent the best route to driving views and subs is to push extreme/edgy content. Balanced content gets no engagement. It's really that simple, with the ADHD short attention span of the current gen of heavy media consumers (read: kids) you have to shock them/surprise them/make them laugh ~once every 5-6 seconds to keep them on the video. YouTube offers very detailed metrics on…

Yeah, but if you are shocking and edgy, is your voice preserved? Sure, people may watch but it's in one ear and out the other, a swell in the sea of noise.

I'm sure most youtubers don't care, but viewer engagement is not the same as being a notable voice.

Re: YouTube's tendency to push everyday users toward politically extreme content

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The whole thing is people need to surround themselves with a good number of people they disagree with on things." I agree with this sentiment. I think, however, a more fundamental problem lies with peoples' attitude toward their own ideas and towards the ideas of others. People have an apparently irresistible tendency to moralize; to consider their ideas as "good" and contrary ones as "bad". Once the moralizing star…

people need to surround themselves with those who hold their opinions more lightly and who avoid moralizing. When people acknowledge that their opinions are simply their personal preferences... Well, that sure sounds like 'moralizing' to me, and I don't think you realize it. If you don't care much about anything, well ok. But that's no virtue. It sounds close to the relativism that talks of "true for me" and "true fo…

I think a good litmus test for an argument is whether you approve of things that such a view can be logically extrapolated to imply. And here you must certainly realize that your argument can be used, and indeed is used, to justify the most heinous of ideologies. There are millions of people, and nations, that still believe as a moral absolute that a person ought be killed for behaviors such as apostasy, homosexuality, blasphemy, atheism, sorcery, adultery, and so on. And of course these individuals cannot be logically moved from their position since they simply double down on their moral self assuredness. Ultimately, moral absolutes are best left to religion, and religion is best left to mythology.

---

Even for things like slavery, most people look through a revisionist lens of times, both past and present. This [1] article from WaPo states some 30 million today are enslaved -- more than at any other time in history. It's certainly sensationalized, but only in magnitude - not reality. The more important takeaway from the article is the locations of where slavery is most prominent today. And it's in countries that failed to economically and technologically evolve.

Something often ignored in favor of softer factors for the ending of slavery is is this [2]. That extensively sourced article goes into the price of a slave in the US in the mid 19th century. In price terms relative to how much each individual earned per year, a slave would cost more than $200,000 in modern day dollars -- a single slave cost as much as a house did. And that's before you get into housing, feeding, and ensuring the good health of your slave. You'll find abolitionists moralistically arguing for literally thousands of years, and even 'Lincolns' dating back to as early as 7AD (China in that case).

The thing you won't find is slavery persisting in areas where it became uneconomical. And an even more serendipitous occurrence is that this was happening at the very time that the industrial revolution was driving urbanization creating a massive pool of low wage labor. And on top of this all rising productivity also meant that paying somebody a wage was no longer as burdensome a cost to bear. These factors are arguably what genuinely meant slavery in the United States was finally brought to an effective end. And similarly the reasons it continues to 'thrive' in other areas today is not for lack of moralistic arguments, or even laws against it, but simply because of the economic factors are, for various reasons, not yet in play.

[1] - https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/10/17...

[2] - https://www.measuringworth.com/slavery.php

Re: YouTube's tendency to push everyday users toward politically extreme content

#199
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She recently got interviewed in Ezra Klein's show to discuss the same: https://art19.com/shows/the-ezra-klein-show/episodes/109611f... To paraphrase one of the better soundbites in the show: YouTube is like that friend in high school who always outdoes you no matter what you do. You're vegetarian, she's vegan; you're moderate left or right, she's at the more extreme end of the political spectrum; etc.

Thanks for using this Art19 link, I’d never heard of this company. Glad to know there are folks out there hard at work ruining podcasts.

Out of curiosity, why are you writing they're ruining podcasts? (FWIW, I wasn't aware of them until today, when I searched that podcast's permalink on their site.)

Re: YouTube's tendency to push everyday users toward politically extreme content

#200
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not perfect is understatement They are horrible. Not just because of what the article is about, but because their recommendations are ridiculous avwn outside political content. And youtube rules also motivate providers to churn out a lot of content regularly (leading to quick to produce crap) and punish those who take their time to think or research before they talk.

>Not perfect is understatement They are horrible. They would be much less horrible if every time one watched videos, they would rate them in a way, instead of assuming that "watching"="interest". > And youtube rules also motivate providers to churn out a lot of content regularly (leading to quick to produce crap) and punish those who take their time to think or research before they talk. That's not just Youtube: abou…

Watching does = interest if you continue to stay on the topic. Interest certainly does not mean approval, and it often can mean "I find this content extreme and outrageous."
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