Earlier quoted context omitted.
In Europe we call that taxes.
Where in Europe are the tax rates determined by your field of study?
Here's the wonderful part, "being a human being" is something we all study and strive to be good at!
False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm
191–200 of 259 posts
Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm
#192I think that most people shouldn't aspire to go to college. They should learn a trade instead in order to become a plumber, carpenter, electrician, or car mechanic. There are lots of occupations that don't require a college degree, yet provide a solid paycheck without the crushing mass of student debt accrued in the pursuit of a useless degree. Michael Bloomberg himself said it best: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2…
That implies that college is only important for skill transfer towards an occupation. Historically, part of college was to help an individual grow personally and intellectually, to learn not just what to think, but how to think clearly, in order to better engage with civil society as an active participant. It's always a little off-putting when I see people suggest that higher education is just for a job, and discount…
> Historically, part of college was to help an individual grow personally and intellectually, to learn not just what to think, but how to think clearly, in order to better engage with civil society as an active participant.
Do you mean elementary school? Historically, that is the level of schooling that was provided to all citizens to learn how to think and allow them to become active participants in a civil society. Although it is debatable of how successful it has been at that in modern times.
Historically, college was reserved as a finishing school for the wealthy to learn the social graces of upper-class society. It was only after people started noticing a correlation between wealth and completion of a college degree that the lower members of society started pushing for affordable access, believing that they would also be able to join the upper-class with that experience.
Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm
#193Earlier quoted context omitted.
It would require huge political will to go against the existing system. I'm excited about Lambda School ( https://lambdaschool.com ). If they are successful, there should be lots of investors trying out similar models and destroying the existing system.
One problem here is that, at least in my humble opinion, education should ultimately be (or trend towards becoming) a basic human right. Repackaging debt as wage garnishment while making job placement easier makes the job market more efficient, certainly. I can understand why people are excited. It doesn't fix the underlying structural issues in the American education system.
I agree. I think the US system is terrible. We should not stop providing public education merely because someone achieves the age of 18 or 12th grade. But I don't see how it can be fixed politically.
Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm
#194Earlier quoted context omitted.
...what!? A semester was 30k USD? My entire two degrees was maybe 25k CAD. Why would anyone ever in the right mind even try to go to school if it costs that much? Surely you meant 3k. You can't possibly get a credit limit for 30... Good God I hope not... Can you?
A 4-year degree at many American colleges can easily run to a quarter-mil. No I’m not kidding. That’s why it’s so incredible that people go there for anything other than employable degrees. What privilege level is a person on who can drop that kind of money just for fun? But there seem to be lots of them
That's sticker price at the most expensive private universities in the US. Even most of the students attending those universities aren't actually paying that.
Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm
#195Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's how you get nothing but science and engineering majors, because most other majors don't have the ROI on average. But society is probably better off with some history and art majors too. We need to find a way to finance education that isn't based on future income.
There's a presumption, I think, in this scheme that if loans for art majors are less available or attractive, the cost of an art degree will decrease. In which case you'd reach some equilibrium where the loans are not very good, but the cost is not very high, and people would still get art degrees.
Wouldn't sunk costs for a university make it difficult to charge based on major? All the fixed infrastructure and overhead would be the same. So you would end up with high cost for loans, plus significant costs for delivery; I think most colleges and universities would cut back on art majors etc.
Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm
#196Earlier quoted context omitted.
...what!? A semester was 30k USD? My entire two degrees was maybe 25k CAD. Why would anyone ever in the right mind even try to go to school if it costs that much? Surely you meant 3k. You can't possibly get a credit limit for 30... Good God I hope not... Can you?
A semester at any old American university could be $30k, especially for out of state tuition. It's pretty easy to get $30k+ credit limits, I have two cards with over $40k limits (I do points milling/never carry a balance). If I were to max my total credit limit on all cards and pay minimum payments it would take 86 years to pay off.
>A semester at any old American university could be $30k, especially for out of state tuition.
For public schools the average out of state tuition is about $10k.
The absolute highest is $23k. In state is much cheaper on average.
For private schools, $30k a semester is sticker price at an expensive school.
Very few college students can get limits that high.
> If I were to max my total credit limit on all cards and pay minimum payments it would take 86 years to pay off.
Most large credit cards charge accrued interest for the month plus 1% of balance (once your balance gets above a certain amount). It wouldn't take anywhere near 86 years for the majority of credit cards.
Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm
#197Earlier quoted context omitted.
A lot of debate about education forgets that roughly half of public university students wash out. Graduation is a real accomplishment that sets you apart from many others who had the same opportunity and access.
To clarify the above: only 54.8% graduate in 6 years. Not 4 years... 6 years, meaning more debt. And that assumes they graduate, as opposed to just giving up. source: https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/10/bill-gates-us-college-dropou...
That doesn't necessarily mean more debt. It normally means they aren't taking a full load. Most schools charge by credit hour now until you go above 15, so the extra debt is mostly just 2 years extra interest.
Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm
#198Earlier quoted context omitted.
One problem here is that, at least in my humble opinion, education should ultimately be (or trend towards becoming) a basic human right. Repackaging debt as wage garnishment while making job placement easier makes the job market more efficient, certainly. I can understand why people are excited. It doesn't fix the underlying structural issues in the American education system.
I agree. I think the US system is terrible. We should not stop providing public education merely because someone achieves the age of 18 or 12th grade. But I don't see how it can be fixed politically.
In a functioning education system (which the US system arguably isn't), 12 years of schooling is more than sufficient to produce a well rounded person capable of being a productive and engaging member of civil society. It is not clear to me what the societal benefit is beyond that.
I can agree that college is becoming a band-aid to make up for the serious problems found in earlier years. To the point that, in recognition of this, many now call people who have not graduated from college 'uneducated', which is pretty sad when you think that 12 years of completed schooling hasn't provided an education. But the solution for healing a wound isn't to provide a more affordable band-aid. It is to address what is causing the wound in the first place.
It need not be a difficult fix politically. Nobody, who isn't emotionally or financially invested in college being a band-aid, is going to argue against educating our youth in the K-12 system. The only roadblock is getting someone to think about the issue, as the advertising done by the colleges has left us believing that education simply isn't provided any other way other than through colleges.
Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm
#199Earlier quoted context omitted.
Parental income and educational achievments of children are almost perfectly correlated up until some very high wealth #. https://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/27/sat-scores-and...
Right, but so are parental income and parental achievement. And last I checked, there is a strong correlation between maternal educational achievement and child educational achievement even after controlling for various things including wealth. The correlation with paternal achievement when controlling for other factors is much lower.
Yes, this is why the idea of meritocracy sounds fair, but really isn't. Our merit is largely determined by factors outside of our control.
Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm
#200Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's how supply and demand works though. When people don't think the ROI is there prices will drop. Admission to a to school seemed like the only path to wealth when I was growing up. I don't think I can make that same claim for my kids. For whatever I have saved for them I'll offer to put it towards college or give it to them when they turn 20 to start a business.
The supply/demand equation for college is broken precisely because student loans are can’t be discharged. Every student essentially has an infinitely deep pocket to borrow against so colleges continue to raise prices.
Sure, loans help increase prices just as with cars and housing. But the supply/demand equation is still the same. A high number of high school graduates want those few freshman seats at top colleges and are willing to pay X over the next 10-20 years to attend. College prices will rise until they hit that number. The structure of the loan (interest rate, terms, etc.) is factored into the value of X.
The problem comes when the actual value of graduating from a top college does not equal the expected value. That's where you get people making poor economic decisions (or when they don't read the interest rate on the loan). The people who have to pay $5k/month in student loans, but make $20k/month at their job are getting the deal they expected. But the people who knew they'd have to pay $5k/month but can only find a $8k/month job are having buyers remorse.