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E-waste recycler loses appeal on computer restore disks, must serve prison term

washingtonpost.com

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Re: E-waste recycler loses appeal on computer restore disks, must serve prison term

#191

Post by pritambaral »

cptskippy wrote: post #172
kickopotomus wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, not at all. It is more akin to you selling a backup copy of the book that is bound by a lock. The people that buy your version of the book must either already have the key to unlock it or buy it separately.

Or do a quick google search for a copy of the key. The point is, he doesn't have permission to distribute the software. If I was selling "recovery" Kindle eBooks but only to people who pinkie swore they already purchased the book, do you think Amazon or the Publishers would mind? How is this different?

> The point is, he doesn't have permission to distribute the software.

This is not the point of contention. He pled guilty to this.

The point of contention is the amount of damages Microsoft argued and the court agreed on. Microsoft argued these disks were worth the full-price of a Microsoft-sold disk+license, but these disks did not contain the license.

It's like being sued by Amazon for thousands of dollars (instead of a more reasonably number) because you resold physical copies of ebooks they already sold for free on their website.

Re: E-waste recycler loses appeal on computer restore disks, must serve prison term

#192

Post by cwyers »

freehunter wrote: post #187
cwyers wrote: post #171

Everybody is reading this wrong, which isn't a huge surprise because the Post seems to have nobody on hand who understands the facts of the case and relied on an interview with Lundgren heavily. He was not providing people with restore media they could use to fix their own machines. He was taking the restore media, burning it onto discs _with official Microsoft and Dell logos on them_ and then _selling them to comput…

I think it needs rephrasing. There's a lot that can be argued when you phrase it as "counterfeit restore discs", but it's open-and-shut trademark infringement. I know that's not what Microsoft was arguing, but in reality that's closer to what the judge ended up going with when you account for the reduced "cost" per disc. Like he said in his defense, if he had labeled it "Eric's Restore Disc" instead of putting the De…

> Like he said in his defense, if he had labeled it "Eric's Restore Disc" instead of putting the Dell and Windows logo on it, he probably would have skirted any real repercussions.

How is that a defense?!? Yes, it's true that if you don't crime, you don't get punished for crime, but... he crimed. And, from the article:

> Lundgren had 28,000 of the disks made and shipped to a broker in Florida. Their plan was to sell the disks to computer refurbishing shops for about 25 cents apiece, so the refurbishers could provide the disks to used-computer buyers and wouldn’t have to take the time to create the disks themselves.

These discs were INTENDED to be provided to third parties who didn't know who actually made them. This goes beyond trademark infringement, I think.

Re: E-waste recycler loses appeal on computer restore disks, must serve prison term

#194

Post by Houshalter »

cwyers wrote: post #192
freehunter wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it needs rephrasing. There's a lot that can be argued when you phrase it as "counterfeit restore discs", but it's open-and-shut trademark infringement. I know that's not what Microsoft was arguing, but in reality that's closer to what the judge ended up going with when you account for the reduced "cost" per disc. Like he said in his defense, if he had labeled it "Eric's Restore Disc" instead of putting the De…

> Like he said in his defense, if he had labeled it "Eric's Restore Disc" instead of putting the Dell and Windows logo on it, he probably would have skirted any real repercussions. How is that a defense?!? Yes, it's true that if you don't crime, you don't get punished for crime, but... he crimed. And, from the article: > Lundgren had 28,000 of the disks made and shipped to a broker in Florida. Their plan was to sell…

He wasn't charged with trademark infringement, so its irrelevant. If he had removed the logos entirely they still would have sent him to jail. And that's the precedent they've set to anyone who might want to try this in the future.

Re: E-waste recycler loses appeal on computer restore disks, must serve prison term

#195

Post by sevensor »

treis wrote: post #109
sevensor wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> >The original Microsoft (COA) attached to the PC does not allow you to reload Microsoft Windows software when no original recovery media is present. Thank you for digging this up. This is an important point, and I think a lot of us, including myself and the hapless recycler, have naively assumed that sticker plus iso equals a legit install in Microsoft's eyes. Nevertheless, it's still a travesty that he was convict…

Oh come on. He wasn't a hapless recycler. He was the CEO of a 100 person for profit company processing 41 million pounds of stuff from IBM, Motorola, and Sprint. He knew exactly what he was doing. Who do you think he was intending to sell these CDs to? His own company, of course. And why? To increase his profit by $25 a computer. There's no other logical explanation. No one would go through the trouble of exactly rep…

The article I read had him selling them for $0.25 per computer. $25 was the figure the court arrived at for the value of each disk. Other than that, your point is well taken. The portrayal of this guy as totally naive and well-intentioned is suspect.

Re: E-waste recycler loses appeal on computer restore disks, must serve prison term

#196

Post by jeffdubin »

joeevans1000 wrote: post #105
datalus wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He just lost the appeal...

I'm appealing to all talented college engineers and others to avoid applying to work Microsoft at all costs. They pursued this guy and are the reason this actually got so far. Your work would be literally furthering this sort of absurd outcome.

And I'm appealing to all talented college engineers and others to _work_ Microsoft at all costs - and change their culture to prevent this kind of situation from happening again.

Re: E-waste recycler loses appeal on computer restore disks, must serve prison term

#197

Post by RIMR »

cptskippy wrote: post #144
DoctorOetker wrote: post #55

what makes it legal for an ISP (on behalf of an end-user) to request a microsoft server for the recovery disc download and then send this stream of bits to the end-user, but then illegal for Lundgren (also on behalf of an end-user) to request a microsoft server for the recovery disc download and then send a disc of those bts to the end-user? Is it because Lundgren is no ISP, or is it because the disc is considered a…

Microsoft doesn't provide recovery/restore discs for download. Microsoft provides installation images that require and prompt for a valid product key and license to use the software (except Windows 10). Most OEM Restore/Recovery media do not prompt the user for a product key. They either have key/license hidden on a recovery partition on the machine, stored in the firmware, or hardcoded on the disc. It's unclear how…

Microsoft does provide recovery disks for download: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows7

Only recently did you need to enter your license key to download them. Regardless, you need the license key to activate the OS, so these disks did not enable anyone to use the OS who did not already own a legitimate license.

Microsoft's lost revenue came in the form of reduced sales of redundant licenses..

Re: E-waste recycler loses appeal on computer restore disks, must serve prison term

#198

Post by RIMR »

naoru wrote: post #108

Controversial opinion: mr. Lundgren could tamper with disc content and ship any kind of malware with the OS to intercept sensible data. I'd never trust that kind of 'OEM' CD.

Your opinion is completely invalid though, because Mr. Lundgren did not tamper with the disc contents to ship any malware of any kind.

You could go on a killing spree this afternoon - should we go ahead and lock you up now?

Re: E-waste recycler loses appeal on computer restore disks, must serve prison term

#199

Post by cptskippy »

pritambaral wrote: post #191
cptskippy wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or do a quick google search for a copy of the key. The point is, he doesn't have permission to distribute the software. If I was selling "recovery" Kindle eBooks but only to people who pinkie swore they already purchased the book, do you think Amazon or the Publishers would mind? How is this different?

> The point is, he doesn't have permission to distribute the software. This is not the point of contention. He pled guilty to this. The point of contention is the amount of damages Microsoft argued and the court agreed on. Microsoft argued these disks were worth the full-price of a Microsoft-sold disk+license, but these disks did not contain the license. It's like being sued by Amazon for thousands of dollars (instea…

Going back and reading the original WP article sheds some light on the whole case.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/true-crime/wp/2018/04/24...

He wasn't actually convicted of distributing software illegally and the arguments for the cost of the licenses is moot. That being said, initially Federal Prosecutors tried to say the discs were valued at $299 a piece but Microsoft intervened and said that they sold refurbishers licenses for $25 and his were at most worth $20.

He was convicted of counterfeiting and copyright infringement for distributing media that had Dell and Microsoft logos and looked like legitimate media.

> The discs had labels nearly identical to the discs provided by Dell for its computers and had the Windows and Dell logos. “If I had just written ‘Eric’s Restore Disc’ on there, it would have been fine,” Lundgren said.

So why didn't he?

Re: E-waste recycler loses appeal on computer restore disks, must serve prison term

#200

Post by cptskippy »

defen wrote: post #185
cptskippy wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can't just use a windows restore disk to get a new windows installation. When installed, it will ask you for your license key, and will not function fully until you have done so. The restore discs usually don't prompt for a key. It's either stored on a recovery partition on your disk, in the bios, or hardcoded in the disc media. It doesn't say how his disc worked but at a minimum he was still acting as an unlic…

I'm ok with saying that this guy violated Microsoft's copyright by redistributing Windows binaries, but the punishment seems egregious. 15 months in jail and a $50,000 fine? At most he should have been fined the $3,400 and given a suspended sentence.

The convictions were actually for counterfeiting and copyright violation of the Dell and Windows Logos.

Federal prosecutors initially tried to nail him with $299 per disc but Microsoft intervened and said they sold refurbishers a $25 license and at most his disc should be valued at $20.

I think he should have been notified that his actions were potentially illegal and been given the option to just destroy the media.

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