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61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

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Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#191

Post by fzeroracer »

cutler wrote: post #160
fzeroracer wrote: post #119

Speaking as someone currently in that position (developer with two years of experience) my personal experiences seem to align quite well with the data they collected. When companies say 'entry-level', they seem to be referring to around 2-3 years of working experience. Not just college + internships, but actual professional experience. It's an extremely silly market to be in right now if you're a fresh grad. All this…

Can you please elaborate? Honestly, I'm interested to hear how anyone with such a low level of technical skill managed to get anyone to believe they were anything more than a junior. It also interests me because recently I've had a number of recruiters try to convince me that I'm a senior just because I've been programming for a living for 12 years. I'm honest enough with myself to admit that although I've used sever…

The reason why they were able to seem like they were senior was because they had the work history. Even though their technical skills were lacking, the sheer amount of development history automatically made them a potential candidate worth interviewing.

Once you have guaranteed interviews, from there it's just a matter of finding a company with the most lax interviews or one where you can fake it the easiest. At least that's my best guess; I don't fully understand how someone can work for a company for over a decade yet can't understand basic OOP or fizzbuzz-level challenges. It became a serious issue at my company because most of the senior-level candidates we got were utterly useless.

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#192

Post by bartread »

gaustin wrote: post #171
stevenwoo wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did you get hired for email archival? Started looking at online applications and every single one has something like "Why do you want to work for us?" and yesterday I saw "How do you add to our diversity?"

What's the problem with those questions?

I wouldn't be surprised to find that in the UK it's illegal to ask a candidate "How do you add to our diversity?" because it could be seen as a thinly veiled way to, for example, discover a candidate's sexual preference - something you are outright not allowed to ask about, except in very specific circumstances[1].

(Also, it's an insufferably pretentious question, even if not actually illegal.)

[1] E.g., it might be legally acceptable for a role in a religious organisation.

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#193

Post by meesterdude »

bartread wrote: post #190
amorphid wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was a recruiter for 8 years, and maybe 1 in 100 applications turned into a hire. I suspect a big factor is the barrier to entry for applying has been lowered. Just fill out a quick form and click submit, so people will apply to any job that looks remotely relevant. An increase in applications makes sifting through those applications increasingly burdensome, and tools have not really made mentally parsing a resume e…

You're spot on with that ratio and, as you say, it can become utterly draining. Depending on the number of applicants I'm getting, I developed a way of dealing with the problem that works well for software engineers: FOR LOTS OF APPLICANTS Send every single applicant a nice, warm email with a link to a coding assessment[1]. Doesn't have to be anything particularly in-depth: just something that requires an hour or two…

FWIW when i apply to a job and get sent back a coding exercise, without first even talking to me, that's usually a red flag for me and i do not proceed with them - although I do communicate that I prefer to have some kind of chat so i know there is a culture fit, before i potentially throw hours of my life away.

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#194

Post by goostavos »

gaustin wrote: post #171
stevenwoo wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did you get hired for email archival? Started looking at online applications and every single one has something like "Why do you want to work for us?" and yesterday I saw "How do you add to our diversity?"

What's the problem with those questions?

I'd argue that they're stupid questions.

What do you stand to learn about the quality/fit of a candidate from the question "why do you want to work with us?"

They could give a 100% bombshell answer and yet not at all fit the role.

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#195

Post by kahnjw »

tomc1985 wrote: post #186
kahnjw wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Passion: strong and barely controllable emotion. "sufficiently non-loathsome...motivate yourself to do it" is a far cry from passionate. Tangentially related @sarahmei on twitter wrote a thread about passion in tech. IMO she nails it: https://twitter.com/sarahmei/status/921366047122268165

I am not sure this lady knows what it means to be passionate then. Dismissing passion as the domain of stuffy white men is to dismissing anyone with an overridingly strong interest in anything

I think you are missing her point. She isn't saying that all passionate people are affluent white males. My interpretation is that passion in a swe job description is code for affluent white male. I think she has a point, individuals who have time for passion projects, self study, or other endeavors are privileged. Many of them are white, male, and affluent.

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#196

Post by [deleted] »

cannonedhamster wrote: post #161
kahnjw wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Passion: strong and barely controllable emotion. "sufficiently non-loathsome...motivate yourself to do it" is a far cry from passionate. Tangentially related @sarahmei on twitter wrote a thread about passion in tech. IMO she nails it: https://twitter.com/sarahmei/status/921366047122268165

This woman completely catches what my college experiences were for me. Great read. From all the data I've seen poverty level is the biggest factor that determines your future potential with race right behind, one would think that we would try to make opportunity the main goal in an advanced society. Not everyone will or wants to be financially successful but when the two things that weigh heaviest on where you end up…

[deleted]

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#197

Post by bartread »

meesterdude wrote: post #193
bartread wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're spot on with that ratio and, as you say, it can become utterly draining. Depending on the number of applicants I'm getting, I developed a way of dealing with the problem that works well for software engineers: FOR LOTS OF APPLICANTS Send every single applicant a nice, warm email with a link to a coding assessment[1]. Doesn't have to be anything particularly in-depth: just something that requires an hour or two…

FWIW when i apply to a job and get sent back a coding exercise, without first even talking to me, that's usually a red flag for me and i do not proceed with them - although I do communicate that I prefer to have some kind of chat so i know there is a culture fit, before i potentially throw hours of my life away.

Fair. But one of the things you end up realising is you can't come up with the perfect process that will please all applicants.

One thing I should have mentioned as well is how I handle referrals, because it's quite different. I always skip the assessment or telescreen in favour of some sort of face to face:

- Invite them in to the office, have coffee, find out more about them, let them meet some of the team, show them what we're working on, maybe have lunch,

- Have a more low-key meeting in a cafe or pub.

In both cases it's about getting to know them better and giving them the opportunity to figure out whether they're really interested in the role: i.e., not a traditional interview. If they are interested, then we go straight to a technical interview.

The above is important because it's a key route for more senior hires. As a result, certainly at the beginning of the process, it's very much tailored to the candidate at an individual level.

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#198

Post by chrisper »

toomanybeersies wrote: post #114
johnnyfaehell wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, I think even the senior levels aren't exactly well paid. According to https://taketheexit.de/ 55% of developers feel heavily underpaid and that's something I can believe easily.

Everybody feels underpaid. You earn more money, then you spend more money, then you wish you had more money. I recently doubled my salary, and I still feel underpaid. In reality, I earn above median wage for my age and experience, and live a comfortable life. But we can always do with more cash.

There is a big difference between having no money and feeling underpaid.

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#199

Post by megy »

meesterdude wrote: post #193
bartread wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're spot on with that ratio and, as you say, it can become utterly draining. Depending on the number of applicants I'm getting, I developed a way of dealing with the problem that works well for software engineers: FOR LOTS OF APPLICANTS Send every single applicant a nice, warm email with a link to a coding assessment[1]. Doesn't have to be anything particularly in-depth: just something that requires an hour or two…

FWIW when i apply to a job and get sent back a coding exercise, without first even talking to me, that's usually a red flag for me and i do not proceed with them - although I do communicate that I prefer to have some kind of chat so i know there is a culture fit, before i potentially throw hours of my life away.

Me too, but I guess it would be different if I didn't have a job/hadn't had one before.

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#200

Post by june_bug »

jmadsen wrote: post #166

It seems to me the whole problem amounts to companies deciding to redefine the word "entry", then acting all disappointed when no one else uses that definition. "Entry" means "to enter the workforce". It means you have pre-work experience such as a specific degree, speak a certain language, etc. If you advertise an "entry level web development" job and I just boot camped for that, I am qualified and will apply. If yo…

Junior Developer is an entry level job title.

As a qualifier, it is a demotion from “Developer” alone. A Junior Developer is less than all the other ordinary, plain old general Developer roles.

It’s basically a paid intern role.

The only people who would ever accept such a title are kids who don’t mind being marked, appropos of nothing, before first impressions are made, as a lesser subordinate, untrusted with serious decisions.

When a recruiter, hiring manager or HR contact offers a Junior role, it means you get paid less.

In a world where business cards and email signatures serve as pretext for introductions, you see a title with Junior in it, and it reeks of green college grads.

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