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Patent trolls are shaking us down for selling “rubies” in our game

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Re: Patent trolls are shaking us down for selling “rubies” in our game

#191

Post by closeparen »

ziikutv wrote: post #74
jlarocco wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The morality of both of them is subjective.

Would be more useful if you can comment on how/when patent trolling would be ethical

I don't want to fix up my car, clean it, stage photos, or meet potential buyers for test drives, so I sell it to a company specialized in those activities.

In the same way, an inventor may not care to advertise his technology, negotiate licensing deals, or file lawsuits to enforce his rights, so he sells it to a company specialized in those activities.

Further, the existence of a secondary market gives inventors strictly more options than they'd have without one. Maybe no one will care to license a particular patent. Maybe it will be a long time before anyone cares. Maybe the business intending to use the patent didn't pan out, and the inventor doesn't really care about licensing it. The market can price in these concerns and still holder an immediate, nonzero payoff when he wants it. The fact that IP can have value even in bankruptcy probably makes investments and loans flow more freely to small businesses and startups.

The real problem is that anyone has an exclusive right to obvious and natural arrangements of software constructs, i.e. that the patent exists at all. The fact that it's a patent troll vs. the original inventor asserting those rights is merely an example of economic specialization.

The meta-problem is that patents are based on the idea that R&D is expensive and commercialization-minus-R&D is cheaper. But in our industry, ideas are cheap and execution at scale is hard.

Re: Patent trolls are shaking us down for selling “rubies” in our game

#192

Post by Kelbit »

PaulAJ wrote: post #177
Kelbit wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While it doesn't help in this case (since there is already a looming legal threat from an NPE), you can buy patent troll insurance now: https://www.rpxcorp.com/ . This covers your legal fees in the event of litigation, which can scare off a patent troll who just wants a hit-and-run settlement.

Two problems: First, you won't be able to get insurance for this case, because it predates your policy. A bit like getting fire insurance when your house is already on fire. Second, an insurance company won't just write you a blank cheque for legal fees, they will take over the case and look for the cheapest way out, which will probably be settlement.

Yes, hence why I pointed out it didn't help in this case (there's already an NPE demanding license fees).

I don't know if the second point is a big deal. Even if they choose to settle, you've still mitigated your risk without going to court. And I suspect a patent litigation insurance agency is going to be motivated to negotiate very small settlements and/or actually fight it out in court, lest they gain a reputation as the company that hands out license fees.

Re: Patent trolls are shaking us down for selling “rubies” in our game

#193

Post by OrganicMSG »

danschumann wrote: post #190
OrganicMSG wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps teach an expert system to automate selecting a flowchart on the fly for each user, that will accomplish a given set of requirements and also not be found in a search of the existing patent corpus. Don't forget to patent it though.

Oi, an AI that automatically generates patents? Sounds awful! It would just attempt to patent every current idea but in a different order.... oh man, please no.

I think it is called IBM.

Re: Patent trolls are shaking us down for selling “rubies” in our game

#194

Post by ericd »

chapill wrote: post #45
ericd wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moving to Estonia just to avoid software patent trolls is an extreme case of letting the tail wag the dog.

50% of the companies in the US incorporate in Delaware. Is that also tail wagging the dog? https://www.delawareinc.com/corporation/

No, because there are very good reasons to incorporate in Delaware. I would infinitely prefer to try to sell or get investment in a Delaware C corp than I would in an Estonian company, even if it didn't involve living in Estonia. Getting sued by patent trolls is just such a minor consideration in founding a company, it's not even worth thinking about.

Re: Patent trolls are shaking us down for selling “rubies” in our game

#195

Post by ebcode »

tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #159
scarmig wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There should be some kind of patent troll clearinghouse. Companies can check it to see if other companies are reporting the same shakedown tactics for a given patent. Though, could a patent troll could get around that by spacing out the trolling? So by the time any company finds another company that's been trolled, they've already paid it up and don't have as much incentive to fight the patent troll after the fact. T…

Most importantly, there need to be penalties for patent trolling. If you try to enforce a patent even though you must know that there is prior art (e.g. because you've been provided clear evidence of it), you go to jail. Not "the bankrupt LLC is liable to pay some money it doesn't have", the actual people behind it, behind actual bars. Of course, the tricky part is not preventing legitimate patent litigation, but if…

really liking your second option there ... if only there were some way to convince lawyers that their jobs were unnecessary.

Re: Patent trolls are shaking us down for selling “rubies” in our game

#196

Post by chasing »

celdon25 wrote: post #174
chasing wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The latter -- f2p and premium currencies -- is the lesser of two evils. By a long shot.

I'd make a case for the opposite. Better the devil you know than the devil you don't know. Patent trolling is being dealt with, while we are only just beginning to grasp the consequences of F2P games. I have personally spent tens of thousands of dollars on such games. But frankly, the real loss for me is that the games industry has transformed from a battle of the name brands, to a battle of the addiction engineering…

You’re in the minority if you’re spending that much on games and you don’t know why. I know dry little about it, but I assume you’re in the realm of addiction and should find help with that.

Also, though: The game industry is experiencing a lengthy renaissance. Stay away from F2P games and dive into the huge catalogue of amazing indie games that deserve your attention and are made by people actually trying to move the art form forward. Way more satisfying, aesthetically and financially.

Re: Patent trolls are shaking us down for selling “rubies” in our game

#197

Post by patentatt »

jasonlaramburu wrote: post #148
ActsJuvenile wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the rest of the HN community, how do you fight patent trolls like these? How much does it cost ballpark to defend a product?

The following is not legal advice and should not be construed as such. Short answer is that it really depends on your strategy and the rate of your firm. For example, a colleague of mine works at a top tier firm. They were hired to defend a major auto maker against a troll. They took the case to trial, won and then successfully countersued for repayment of fees. The whole thing took a couple years (patent cases move…

$100k for a complete end-to-end IPR is at the bottom of the market. You can find it, but $2-300k is more the norm.

Re: Patent trolls are shaking us down for selling “rubies” in our game

#198

Post by danielEFF »

mysterypie wrote: post #150
mchannon wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://trollingeffects.org

Regarding trollingeffects.org, someone needs to submit this current case to the them. I searched for all of the following: 7,177,838 (the patent number), Playsaurus, Clicker Heroes, deBruin/Rubin/Rudman/Jacobs (the trollish lawyers). Nothing showed up. The site does look like it's being maintained. The most recent case I found was from June 2017: https://trollingeffects.org/demand/landmark-technology-llc-2... Also no…

This is Daniel Nazer from EFF. Trolling Effects is still maintained and we still welcome any demand letter submissions. This site is not one of EFF's more successful projects, unfortunately. We've found that companies are generally reluctant to publicly post the threat letters they receive (perhaps fearing a vindictive response from the patent owner). In the year or so after the site launched we spent a fair bit of time encouraging companies to submit but had very little success.

Re: Patent trolls are shaking us down for selling “rubies” in our game

#199

Post by Romanulus »

dajt wrote: post #188
Romanulus wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Side with the free market here: If there are people willing to pay real monies for in-game currencies, then no problems. It's a voluntary transaction. The otherwise is not true.

I have 4 kids, two of which are at an age where they just throw ALL their money at these damned games. The other two will hit that stage soon enough. In my mind these games are no better than poker/slot machines. Adults should be responsible for themselves but kids can't be held to the same standard. So just one more thing I have to police. This system is a rotten, rotten idea.

So, then, teach your kids that.

Re: Patent trolls are shaking us down for selling “rubies” in our game

#200

Post by celdon25 »

chasing wrote: post #196
celdon25 wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd make a case for the opposite. Better the devil you know than the devil you don't know. Patent trolling is being dealt with, while we are only just beginning to grasp the consequences of F2P games. I have personally spent tens of thousands of dollars on such games. But frankly, the real loss for me is that the games industry has transformed from a battle of the name brands, to a battle of the addiction engineering…

You’re in the minority if you’re spending that much on games and you don’t know why. I know dry little about it, but I assume you’re in the realm of addiction and should find help with that. Also, though: The game industry is experiencing a lengthy renaissance. Stay away from F2P games and dive into the huge catalogue of amazing indie games that deserve your attention and are made by people actually trying to move th…

I hadn't checked this, but noticed the reply now. I never spent more than I could afford, but I did spend much, much more time than was healthy. I've since gotten it under control, as I've realized that if I kept doing that, I would never accomplish any of my life goals.

The problem with the indie games is that there are simply too many to choose from, and the ones I like tend to be just as addicting as the F2P games.

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