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The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dictatorship of the Small Minority (2016)

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Re: The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dictatorship of the Small Minority (2016)

#191

Post by KirinDave »

hi-im-mi-ih wrote: post #140
chillwaves wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While running for Congress, Indiana governor Mike Pence called for state funding for "institutions" working to enable people to "change their sexual behavior." https://www.snopes.com/mike-pence-supported-gay-conversion-t...

From the link: Mike Pence once supported the use of federal funding to treat people "seeking to change their sexual behavior." That seems like a great thing to fund. Looks like our current vice president seems interested in helping those who seek help.

Except the reality is that the clients of those straightening camps are often the parents of gay kids, not adults.

There is plenty of data on this.

Re: The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dictatorship of the Small Minority (2016)

#192

Post by conanbatt »

KirinDave wrote: post #126
conanbatt wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. He is meaning that there should be intolera…

Pretty much every intolerance worth opposing harnesses very violent elements in it's base while maintaining a veneer of civility. Look at religious motivated systemic violence against LGBT people in the US. Our current executive has waved a rainbow flag a time or two, but our vice president has personally funded things that look like camps and penned legislation that let's police ignore and LGBT person being beaten o…

> It's just that intolerance naturally leads to violence rather quickly in humans.

I understand this but at the same time, you become the monster as well.

Re: The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dictatorship of the Small Minority (2016)

#193

Post by dragonwriter »

humanrebar wrote: post #178
dragonwriter wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Constitutions aren't magic spells, they still rely on people actively choosing to honor them.

Someone said it's surprising that all three branches of the U.S. government are actively trying to shirk their duties. The President blames Congress for inaction. Congress makes vague and overly complicated bills that mostly enables the executive branch to do actual rulemaking. The Supreme Court, as a rule, tries to be as narrow and impactless as possible. The founders assumed each branch would compete for power. The…

> The founders assumed each branch would compete for power.

They do. Part of that competition is trying to pass blame for things to the other branches, including blame for inaction that the people in office want but the electorate does not, since blame = reduced public support = reduced effective power.

> They didn't expect them to actively push responsibility on to other people.

They probably did, since the framers had plenty of experience with elected politicians (often being such themselves) and blame passing among such politicians is as old as electoral politics (and blame-shifting among politicians more generally is pretty much universal in history, too.)

Re: The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dictatorship of the Small Minority (2016)

#194

Post by dionian »

Accacin wrote: post #125
dionian wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if those religious rules mean the animal has to be treated more humanely than the 'secular' systems of approval?

It's completely untrue that those 'religious rules' mean the animal is treated more humanely. "UK Food Standards Agency figures from 2011 suggest 84% of cattle, 81% of sheep and 88% of chickens slaughtered for halal meat were stunned before they died." http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-27324224 The fact that 16% of cattle aren't stunned is completely disgraceful.

I wouldn't assume that it means such, but I wouldn't assume otherwise, either...

Re: The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dictatorship of the Small Minority (2016)

#195

Post by dionian »

jacquesm wrote: post #52
dionian wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if those religious rules mean the animal has to be treated more humanely than the 'secular' systems of approval?

From what I've seen it is rather the opposite.

well, certainly anything can be misapplied...

Re: The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dictatorship of the Small Minority (2016)

#196

Post by conanbatt »

humanrebar wrote: post #163
makomk wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironically, I usually see Karl Poppler's Paradox of Tolerance used to justify exactly what he's warning against.

That's actually the logical conclusion of "no tolerance for intolerance". Actual intolerance will re-emerge while using that as a slogan. I honestly don't see any other conclusion while divisive identity politics is the culture. Every election and debate is just subtext for making sure your people are in power to protect your people.

Identity politics is all the rage now, but i do believe the libertarians found the way out of this paradox. Its the use of force and coercion that draws a clear line on what kind of intolerance is intolerable.

The rest is just distasteful.

Re: The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dictatorship of the Small Minority (2016)

#197

Post by KirinDave »

akkat wrote: post #135
KirinDave wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty much every intolerance worth opposing harnesses very violent elements in it's base while maintaining a veneer of civility. Look at religious motivated systemic violence against LGBT people in the US. Our current executive has waved a rainbow flag a time or two, but our vice president has personally funded things that look like camps and penned legislation that let's police ignore and LGBT person being beaten o…

That's terrible! I can't seem to find a source of the vice president being connected to legislation allowing police to ignore LGBT people being beaten. Can you give me the link to one? Also, what do you mean by camps? Forced orientation changing?

Sure, it's the tortured story of Indiana's so-called RFRA act that Pence presided over. It includes several problematic sections.

Section 9 opened the door for this interpretation of the build by pointing out that private contractors often work for the city and state, and specifically protecting the right to object to interacting with LGBT people if "[their] exercise of religion has been substantially burdened, or is likely to be substantially burdened".

This leads to an awkward situation where a private contractor doing police, fire, or (most likely) emergency services work for a company with a religious charter is likely protected in doing so.

What's most interesting about the RFRA (and the bills Pence helped pen but never made it to a vote in House and Senate) is the "overriding" clause, allowing for a explicit defense in state court against people who discriminated, and making it harder for those suing to press for (perhaps in 2015, more strict).

This made the law stronger than prior related RFRA acts of other states and at pre-existing federal law.

The text of the law is available publicly and about a billion perspectives on the law are available online. Give that you almost certainly didn't search for it on google, please let me refer you to "mike pence RFRA Indiana". You can find lots of pro and con to suit your taste.

Re: The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dictatorship of the Small Minority (2016)

#198

Post by KirinDave »

danieltillett wrote: post #142
chillwaves wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While running for Congress, Indiana governor Mike Pence called for state funding for "institutions" working to enable people to "change their sexual behavior." https://www.snopes.com/mike-pence-supported-gay-conversion-t...

Not that I think "gay conversion" is effective (maybe at the margins), but as society we do seem to beleive that others sexual orientations can be changed via incarceration.

Why can't both things be bad?

Re: The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dictatorship of the Small Minority (2016)

#199

Post by KirinDave »

conanbatt wrote: post #192
KirinDave wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty much every intolerance worth opposing harnesses very violent elements in it's base while maintaining a veneer of civility. Look at religious motivated systemic violence against LGBT people in the US. Our current executive has waved a rainbow flag a time or two, but our vice president has personally funded things that look like camps and penned legislation that let's police ignore and LGBT person being beaten o…

> It's just that intolerance naturally leads to violence rather quickly in humans. I understand this but at the same time, you become the monster as well.

How does the song go? "A salvageable hypocrisy is better than brutal truth?"

Re: The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dictatorship of the Small Minority (2016)

#200

Post by jonahx »

syrrim wrote: post #175
KirinDave wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty much every intolerance worth opposing harnesses very violent elements in it's base while maintaining a veneer of civility. Look at religious motivated systemic violence against LGBT people in the US. Our current executive has waved a rainbow flag a time or two, but our vice president has personally funded things that look like camps and penned legislation that let's police ignore and LGBT person being beaten o…

Perhaps all intolerant groups harness violence, but it is clearly not a required element. They could easily substitute it with social stigmatization, and achieve a similar effect. Many religious people today will disown a son or daughter for coming out as gay. Were there no legislation stopping this, I imagine the same people would refuse to allow gay people into their businesses. If we were able to guarantee that al…

that would still be preferable
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