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In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

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Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#191

Post by jgh »

eridius wrote: post #153

> That means cats must have a daily visual contact with other felines Wow, really? Why? Cats are loners, they don't need to be around other cats. In fact, my cat hates other cats, giving her daily visual contact with other cats would basically be torture.

I'm with you there...we used to live in an apartment on the ground level and people nearby had outdoor cats that would regularly come to our windows and it would really stress my cat out. He's a lot easier going without the daily visual contact with other felines.

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#192

Post by myrandomcomment »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #140
blattimwind wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My gut feeling is that you do very little work with your hands, because your pain-o-meter seems to have drifted in a very unrealistic direction.

I agree. I'd do a heck of a lot more unsafe shit if I knew I could survive it without permanent damage. It's the permanent damage that keeps me from doing flagrantly unsafe stuff, not the pain. You wind up causing yourself pain in all sorts of avoidable but not terribly unsafe ways.

It's is amazing the pain and suffering a human can endure through shear force of will. In Ranger School in the US Army the primary thing you learn more then anything else is you mind can tell your body to shut up deal.

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#193

Post by myrandomcomment »

heinrichf wrote: post #9

It's also illegal to own a single guinea pig or parrot (because they are prone to loneliness): https://www.zmescience.com/other/feature-post/guinea-pig-swi...

This is a reasonable thing. Prolonged harm is something that should be avoided. It is very likely that the need of these animals is not something that is well known. You are not trying to kill and eat your guinea pig.

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#194

Post by Terretta »

Tyrannosaur wrote: post #185
dsfyu404ed wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you knew there would be no permanent damage would you do it for $10, $100, $1,000, some amount that assures you never have to work again, etc? There's many cultures that have coming of age rituals that would be considered torture in the western world. People do those things because they're "part of a larger package" so to speak.

There being "many cultures" that do this, I'd like to hear some examples. The only ones I can come up with are fictional

Random cut and pastes:

THAIPUSAM, MALAYSIA

In a demonstration of devotion and offer of penance to the Hindu God Lord Murugan, devotees perform incredible (and sometimes gruesome!) feats. They pierce their body and face with skewers, drag chariots with hooks attached to their skin and carry uncomfortable metal frames called ‘kavadis’ through the streets and up the 272 steps to the shrine at the top of the cave. During the festival some participants enter trance-like states when their soul is believed to be cleansed of sins.

PHUKET VEGETARIAN FESTIVAL, THAILAND

By the name of this festival you may assume it to be a gentle affair where new-age vegetarian hippies share tofu recipes over yoga mats in Thailand. However, the Phuket Vegetarian festival is one of the craziest, most spectacular events in South East Asia. You’ll witness incredible acts of self-torture such as walking on hot coals, climbing bladed ladders and the piercing of cheeks with swords, shards of glass – even beach umbrellas.

Filipino fanatics re-enact crucifixion for Good Friday

In a bloody display of religious devotion Roman Catholic fanatics in the Philippines have had themselves nailed to the cross as the Christian world marks the day Jesus was crucified.

Read the link for quotes from people talking about the repeated nerve pain, blood, etc.:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-04-06/philippino-fanatics-cr...

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#195

Post by IntronExon »

Bizarro wrote: post #167

That means cats must have a daily visual contact with other felines, and hamsters or guinea pigs must be kept in pairs. And anyone who flushes a pet goldfish down the toilet is breaking the law. Say what? So in Switzerland I can go to jail for not making a play date for my cat, or buying a little friend for my hamster? What's next, you can't kill a spider that's creeping around your house? People need to understand t…

The optimist in me says that the Swiss are erring on the side of doing as little harm as possible, and respecting the rights of creatures we understand far less completely than we like to think. The realist in me suspects that this is largely politicsl, driven by unfounded, but popular notions of universal animal welfare which ultimately come from a compassionate place.

The cynic in me thinks that this is some rank hypocrisy from the former bankers of the third reich, who still struggle when victims try to recover assets, as they eat an average of about 160lbs of meat per year.

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#196

Post by IntronExon »

tptacek wrote: post #16
derefr wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm desperately holding myself back from getting distracted from work with a deep dive through crustacean nervous system anatomy here, so I'll just ask: in what way are they different?

Having to do with the fact that lobsters (according to Wallace) have decentralized nervous systems consisting of ganglia wired in series, so that slicing through one of them might not disable the creature's nociception upon being immersed in boiling water. You might just be keeping it from flailing around, paralyzed but still "aware" in whatever sense a lobster is aware of anything. Dave Arnold, another favorite writ…

Why not just freeze them? Their metabolism is no mystery, and cold will slow them and eventually render them “asleep”.

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#197

Post by flyGuyOnTheSly »

IntronExon wrote: post #196
tptacek wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having to do with the fact that lobsters (according to Wallace) have decentralized nervous systems consisting of ganglia wired in series, so that slicing through one of them might not disable the creature's nociception upon being immersed in boiling water. You might just be keeping it from flailing around, paralyzed but still "aware" in whatever sense a lobster is aware of anything. Dave Arnold, another favorite writ…

Why not just freeze them? Their metabolism is no mystery, and cold will slow them and eventually render them “asleep”.

Because most humans would never agree that "freezing to death" is a just death, although I am sure it would work out just fine as you described.

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#198

Post by IntronExon »

flyGuyOnTheSly wrote: post #197
IntronExon wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not just freeze them? Their metabolism is no mystery, and cold will slow them and eventually render them “asleep”.

Because most humans would never agree that "freezing to death" is a just death, although I am sure it would work out just fine as you described.

Humans would rapidly freeze to death in a lobster’s natural habitat. Humans are not lobsters, and we should be careful to remember that freezing to death is experienced differently by animals with different metabolisms. A good rule of thumb is that endotherms suffer horribly and experience pain in low temperatures, while cold-blooded animals experience torpor.

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#199

Post by wallace_f »

staticassertion wrote: post #156
wallace_f wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's exactly the point. The first steps in the path to illegitimate authority is to start legitimizing it using these low-hanging fruits. This is just textbook play calling. Removing net neutrality starts "we just want to help hospitals and police have faster internet, don't be ridiculous." Drug prohibition, the War on Terror, the TSA, police militarization. It all, every time, comes with "they're just trying to do…

We already have laws about which animals can be kept as pets. This is hardly an egregious extension of that power. The law is very plainly there to prevent guinea pigs from being abused. It is not there to extend the government's power. What an extremely odd thing to argue.

The concept is about 'what constitutes legitimate authority?' After all, consider your argument:

>'we already have laws about which people can get married. This is hardly an egregious extension of that power. The law is very plainly there to protect children.'

What you're advocating by disavowing the above, yet allowing the topic is to say you: "agree with authority when it happens to agree with my moral compass."

Sayinf "disagreeing with this is an extremely odd thing to argue," reveals the fact that the original intentions of the founders of this country (assuming you live in the States), as well as those of Enlightenment figures, that government is only legitimate whwn it is limited, is so odd and alienating to you makes me think that no wonder humanity always turns itself in to tyranny, over and over again.

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