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The radical idea of a world without jobs

theguardian.com

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Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#191

Post by TuringTest »

adrianN wrote: post #51
swalsh wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These conversations I feel always seem shallow to me. Automation is definitely helping to free us from a lot of work.. but the world we live in today feels like a preview of what an automated world feels like. In reality, our material lifestyle is still supported by a very large number of people working away in countries most Americans can't find on a map for extremely low wages. If we're going to talk about "reorgan…

Such improvements tend to spread from rich to poor. People in developing countries choose those horrible factory jobs because they're still better than subsistence farming. China is lifting huge numbers of people from abject poverty every year. Eventually wages rise.

See NoGravitas post above:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16186508

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#192

Post by saiya-jin »

clarry wrote: post #109
carlmr wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And even where Asian products are popular (e.g. big home appliances), European alternatives do exist. I can think of Miele. That's the only one that's propely German still. Bosch/Siemens are both very much Asian on the inside. They do some assembly in Germany as far as I know. Can't think of any other European brands in this space.

How about Electrolux (AEG, Rosenlew, etc.), Liebherr, Gorenje/Asko/Upo, Festivo, Smeg, Hotpoint? If you want to avoid Asian products, we can buy American too.. e.g. Whirlpool.

ah don't mention Electrolux, that brand has been just a disappointment to me.

Subpar dishwasher (comparable Siemens one cleans dishes visibly better), very subpar washing machine (integrated dryer has almost 0 effect on how wet laundry is), kitchen hood above stove stopped working completely after 6 months (of course this one is most costly to change because its integrated to the wall). All bought in 2016 for flat reconstruction, none of them basic models, rather higher ones (but not highest). I am not that rich to afford managing of those crappy things.

Never, ever again (I had same type of experience with Whirlpool cca 10 years ago). For +-reasonable pricing, Siemens & Bosch, for absolute quality and reliability, Miele.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#193

Post by rainingmonkey »

tw1010 wrote: post #49

I don't see how a jobless steady state is compatible with the zero-sum game that is the natural desire, in all of us, for power and sex.

Just because jobs are no longer mandatory, doesn't mean we won't have hierarchies of power and, if anything, probably allows for even more sex.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#194

Post by banderman »

fergie wrote: post #11

"Work is badly distributed. People have too much, or too little, or both in the same month. And away from our unpredictable, all-consuming workplaces, vital human activities are increasingly neglected. Workers lack the time or energy to raise children attentively, or to look after elderly relations. “The crisis of work is also a crisis of home,” ... This neglect will only get worse as the population grows and ages."…

A standard 35 hour work week could help with this.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#195

Post by Shivetya »

corey_moncure wrote: post #127
lbotos wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been calling amazon prime a "hiding of the poor" to my friends and family. Hide the laborers in a far off insanely demanding warehouse, you just get the goods. (I don't have prime, I don't use prime, and I don't want this to be our future.)

Yes, this is exactly it. Slavery was distasteful so we used the modern economy to abstract the slavery out of sight, hide it under the rug. One click buy! Pay no attention to the machine behind the curtain. Wish Amazon would offer an entirely "Made in first world with protected workers" store.

but Amazon certainly did not invent the warehouse or the conditions some of us think deplorable. there were a few headline making stories but that is all they are. they revealed a job that many expected to not be fun but never really wanted to know the nitty gritty.

there are far worse jobs out there and no amount of automation will rid us of them. from friends that work as linemen; and they all seem to enjoy their jobs; to another who works as a vet; you want a job that not only soaks hours but heartbreak be a vet.

we have plenty of "not fun" jobs but that is exactly why we pay people to do them. there are those around you everyday, I love doing my lawn but have neighbors who don't want to.

modern economy hell, its gotten leagues better than it used to be. people don't realize how much better many jobs are because they believe the sensationalized stories of the day. I am not saying there is no room for improvement but just open your eyes to what was and realize how far we have come

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#196

Post by tboyd47 »

The idea of post-work is interesting, but the future in my mind looks more like "pre-work." By that I mean a generalized return to the way economies functioned before the Industrial Revolution, rather than a transcendence into some vague new way of life that's radically different than anything experienced before.

With my limited understanding of history, I understand that jobs still existed before industry. Extreme wealth inequality existed as well. The difference is that most wealth is inherited, except for artisans and administrators, who concentrate mainly in cities, and traveling merchants. And the concept of a job being something that defines who you are and carries your entire family from poverty into affluence will probably die out. It's already dying to an extent.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#197

Post by rileyphone »

indigochill wrote: post #84
jaldhar wrote: post #45

This glorious utopia will last for all of five minutes until the last surviving SJW decides robots need rights. And honestly, would xir be wrong? If we ever get to the point where robots can fully take over most human jobs even intellectual ones, we will have had to reach a level of artificial intelligence where even many not so radical religions and philosophies will wonder whether we are exploiting them. When Tesla…

This gets into how you identify a human (I'm saying for the sake of simplicity that humans are the only things eligible for rights, and ignoring animal rights and such) Is there something inherently human about humans? How about coma patients whose functions are limited? Is there some necessary set of functions a thing must have to qualify as a human? That seems to get into dangerous territory for some handicapped pe…

You've pretty much described the Chinese room argument. That aside, we have the power to limit such coming robots to be 'dumb' in a sense, where they are only capable of doing the tasks given to them. Let's hope we can manage that.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#198

Post by psyc »

hycaria wrote: post #128
fergie wrote: post #11

"Work is badly distributed. People have too much, or too little, or both in the same month. And away from our unpredictable, all-consuming workplaces, vital human activities are increasingly neglected. Workers lack the time or energy to raise children attentively, or to look after elderly relations. “The crisis of work is also a crisis of home,” ... This neglect will only get worse as the population grows and ages."…

I disagree. I work a full week at one job + 2 nights per week. Feel that I do a lot of unpaid stuff (ie taking care of the household, cooking, ...) but still endlessly hear about how other people "don't have the time". The useful non paid things that people actually do are greatly overestimated imo, because more often than not it will end up in the "don't have time for it" even though they could manage to find time f…

I agree with you. Growing up, I never heard the end of it. How housework was a full-time job. My mother chanted "men's work is from sun to sun, women's work is never done" like a nursery rhyme, or a prayer. When I moved out, I discovered that working 40 hrs was pretty hard, but housework was a joke. Right now I probably spend around 10-12 hrs per week, max, on housework. And the overwhelming majority of that is just preparing food, which I could spend less time on if I didn't cook. And housework is easy, repetitive, and requires no thought. I mean, I can do laundry unconsciously while writing code in my head.

So since I moved out 22 years ago, my hypothesis has been that people who think housework is a full-time job are actually probably suffering from severe depression and/or anxiety.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#199

Post by tboyd47 »

time_invarient wrote: post #15

I’m stuck in a dead end job right now. I will never be granted a shred of decision making capacity or autonomy. It is a waiting game. Waiting for more assignments. Waiting until 5PM. Waiting for my paycheck. Waiting to get fired. Waiting to retire. Waiting to die. ( n * (Commute. Sit. Wait. Commute. Eat. Sleep.)) Die. Where n == the days I have left in this world. The things I work on feel like absurd, meaningless bo…

If you're contemplating leaving this world, that would be considered a crisis in most places. Look up crisis hotlines in your area and please get help...

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#200

Post by rileyphone »

NoGravitas wrote: post #156

UBI is really only a stopgap to preserve the scaffolding of the existing system (and its inequality). What we really need is Fully Automated Luxury Communism.

Unfortunately, Capital exists to continue the existence of Capital, and once UBI is necessary for this, states will not hesitate to bring it about; Marx didn't really foresee its concessionary nature which has kept it going for the last hundred years, with no end in sight.
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