Earlier quoted context omitted.
>Very small children understand and recognize property, since it is a natural right. The toy in my hand is "mine," and when some other kid comes along and takes it, I get upset. When a very small child in a poor family looks at what is under a wealthy family's Christmas tree he's also going to be upset. Does that make a relatively equal distribution of Christmas presents a natural right? I see no basis for decrying a…
Upset/uncomfortable - maybe, but at who? The rich family? His own family? Himself? Society? All of those? People on hackernews and in general tend to view "negative" feelings, envy, etc... as generically "bad". These feelings are evolutionary signals from your primal brain that something isn't going right. Its up to you to fix that, however you see fit.
The Bitcoin Whales: 1,000 People Who Own 40 Percent of the Market
191–200 of 327 posts
Re: The Bitcoin Whales: 1,000 People Who Own 40 Percent of the Market
#192It's interesting to see how this is playing out. Libertarians have long argued that government-issued fiat currency is a tool of state oppression. Now we have a real-world experiment demonstrating on a grand scale what happens when you create a currency by consensual fiat. I'd be interested to hear what libertarians think about this: Is Bitcoin truly the kind of currency libertarians have been advocating? Have I misc…
Government-issued currencies usually come with legal tender laws and citizens are required to pay taxes using the government money. Since taxes are not voluntary, this creates built-in demand for the fiat money. The creators of alternative competitor-money are punished as well. The libertarian position is that human interactions should be voluntary, so the coercion problem is where libertarians find issue first. A si…
I could never really make sense of that position. Voluntarily by whom? Why would you ever voluntarily agree to a high-inequality society where you are at the lower end?
I don't think bitcoin is a valid example because it's something that (right now) you can choose to ignore completely without any negative consequences for you. Therefore, high inequality is not necessarily a problem.
The moment bitcoin would become the single dominating currency, the situation would be completely different.
Re: The Bitcoin Whales: 1,000 People Who Own 40 Percent of the Market
#193It's interesting to see how this is playing out. Libertarians have long argued that government-issued fiat currency is a tool of state oppression. Now we have a real-world experiment demonstrating on a grand scale what happens when you create a currency by consensual fiat. I'd be interested to hear what libertarians think about this: Is Bitcoin truly the kind of currency libertarians have been advocating? Have I misc…
Government-issued currencies usually come with legal tender laws and citizens are required to pay taxes using the government money. Since taxes are not voluntary, this creates built-in demand for the fiat money. The creators of alternative competitor-money are punished as well. The libertarian position is that human interactions should be voluntary, so the coercion problem is where libertarians find issue first. A si…
I'd like to remind the world there are such things as consequentialist Libertarians who view the value of their policy preferences based on their outcomes rather than the NAP.
Re: The Bitcoin Whales: 1,000 People Who Own 40 Percent of the Market
#194Earlier quoted context omitted.
I consider myself a pragmatic libertarian, which off the top of my head basically means that: 1. I believe very strongly in the sovereignty of the individual. 2. I prefer more open and incentive-driven markets. 3. I’m skeptical of governments, particularly large and powerful ones, because they’re inefficient, rely on coercion, and are too tempting as prizes to be captured for power, prestige, and wealth. However, the…
The UK doesn't have fully nationalized healthcare. * GP surgeries (doctors offices) are private businesses, and may provide NHS services or private services. * The NHS contracts out for a growing number of services, ranging from operating whole departments (e.g. Virgin operates the out-of-hours walk in centre for non-emergency care next door to the A&E/ER at my local hospital) to cleaning. * The NHS rents out facilit…
1. Maybe "fully nationalized" isn't technically true, but my understanding was that the UK was widely regarded to have a nationalized healthcare system. Not really interested in whether that's technically true at the margins unless there's some major policy impact.
2. "Cost-effective" is an interesting term, because it assumes we agree on what "effective" means. I want choice, innovation, better health outcomes, more convenience, shorter wait times, etc., and I'm willing to pay some premium (but not 4x or something) for them. For these reasons, I don't want want the NHS system here (nor do I think it'd work here), despite it being better for some values of "cost-effectiveness".
3. If by "cost-effectiveness", you just mean per-capita spending on healthcare, are you sure the NHS is the most cost-effective of any developed country? Doesn't seem to be the case here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_hea... -- maybe you're using some more complicated measure of spending per health outcomes?
Re: The Bitcoin Whales: 1,000 People Who Own 40 Percent of the Market
#195Earlier quoted context omitted.
>Very small children understand and recognize property, since it is a natural right. The toy in my hand is "mine," and when some other kid comes along and takes it, I get upset. When a very small child in a poor family looks at what is under a wealthy family's Christmas tree he's also going to be upset. Does that make a relatively equal distribution of Christmas presents a natural right? I see no basis for decrying a…
Upset/uncomfortable - maybe, but at who? The rich family? His own family? Himself? Society? All of those? People on hackernews and in general tend to view "negative" feelings, envy, etc... as generically "bad". These feelings are evolutionary signals from your primal brain that something isn't going right. Its up to you to fix that, however you see fit.
"Upset" wasn't my word choice, I was just re-using what clark said to show the emptiness in using childhood feelings to determine what is and isn't a natural right. I don't actually believe our society should be governed by the feelings of children.
Re: The Bitcoin Whales: 1,000 People Who Own 40 Percent of the Market
#196It's interesting to see how this is playing out. Libertarians have long argued that government-issued fiat currency is a tool of state oppression. Now we have a real-world experiment demonstrating on a grand scale what happens when you create a currency by consensual fiat. I'd be interested to hear what libertarians think about this: Is Bitcoin truly the kind of currency libertarians have been advocating? Have I misc…
Government-issued currencies usually come with legal tender laws and citizens are required to pay taxes using the government money. Since taxes are not voluntary, this creates built-in demand for the fiat money. The creators of alternative competitor-money are punished as well. The libertarian position is that human interactions should be voluntary, so the coercion problem is where libertarians find issue first. A si…
Not really.
The real underlying demand for a currency comes from the advantage that everyone gets by using the same currency in a common market.
The 'required for tax' purposes is a side-show.
Does anyone with any financial background appreciate that most businesses in the US want to use a single currency for their US transactions, and definitely not a 'grab bag' various currencies?
Nobody wants that. Nobody.
Also, the requirement to 'pay taxes' in a common currency is not coercive.
As long as there is liquidity in currency, then you can exchange whatever asset you want for USD and pay your taxes then.
Libertarians are still free to use whatever they want in their business dealings. Of course, we all use USD because it's pragmatic and useful.
"Capital controls are an artificial construct of the state"
Western nations do not really have 'capital controls' other than for the purposes of taxation and fraud. And sure, you could say 'taxation' is an 'construct of the state' but it's certainly not 'arbitrary'.
"When the money supply of your currency is not constrained (by gold, or otherwise), then it inevitably inflates, often unpredictably and uncontrollably."
Totally false. Inflation is a target by most central banks. They can make it positive or negative, generally, and target specifically 2% for certain reasons. You can argue against the 2% if you want, but not that managed currencies are inherently 'one thing or another'. They are whatever they are designed to do.
By having a 'perfectly hard currency' - you forgo the risk of having some crazy person doing monetary policy - but worse - you lose the possibility for having monetary policy altogether. How could you possibly not mention this as the most obvious drawback to a strict currency (i.e. no monetary policy)?
Monetary policy is a very powerful instrument for helping the economy along. Without it, it would be impossible to ensure enough liquidity as the market expands. Also, the economy would not be resilient to 'shock' events.
The reason zero economies on planet earth used a fixed-currency regime is because it does not work.
"The libertarian position on wealth inequality is that as long as the distribution of wealth was determined voluntarily"
This position is false, as capitalism itself is game of gaining leverage towards monopoly. Without some degree of redistributive taxation, 90% of the US economy would be in the hands of a small group of people. (And P.S. I'm no communist)
"Bitcoin is such a system: all participation in Bitcoin has been voluntary. "
Again, false.
Bitcoin is not a currency. If anything, BTC has proven how ridiculously bad this 'crypto-currency' idea has been as a currency. By it's very own 'relatively strict' status, it has increased it's value ('deflationary' in your terminology) - and has become useless as a currency.
-----> If we were using Bitcoin as a currency, the economy would be tanking due to a deflationary death-spiral EDIT: by 'death spiral' I'm referring to a common economic idea. As prices of goods go down, investors tend to hoard cash rather than invest it, as holding currency might be a better investment strategy than spending. Without investment, other parts of the economy slow, furthering the impetus to holding cash. The 'mass deflation' we've seen in BTC is equally as destructive as 'mass inflation' we would see from some really poorly managed gong-show currency.
Put another way: yes, you might like it if your 'new tennis shoes' were 1/2 price next week, and 1/2 that price the week after - hey - cheap tennis shoes! But think about it: has the economy just magically been 100% more productive each week? No. Of course not. So - what's happening is a monetary game that will soon hit your paycheque (i.e. your boss can pay you 1/2 your salary each week because that's your real market value). But worse - because of this drop in prices, your boss will be less likely to expand because his cost of capital equations show him it's smarter to hold the cash.
But it's all moot: Bitcoin is not a currency. It could be used as a currency, but it's not. It's just a purely speculative thing that's going on. People trading numbers for money 'because'. There's no rhyme or reason. There is no 'big government vs. small government' ideology here. There is no 'libertarian' behind BTC currency. It's just a meme with money that's interesting to watch.
Re: The Bitcoin Whales: 1,000 People Who Own 40 Percent of the Market
#197Re: The Bitcoin Whales: 1,000 People Who Own 40 Percent of the Market
#198Earlier quoted context omitted.
It isn't illegal to circumvent the cabal by agreeing to use a different currency. The sole goal of currency is a common medium of exchange. If that common medium is being manipulated then the market will perceive that as damage and route around it.
>If that common medium is being manipulated then the market will perceive that as damage and route around it. Isn't that basically the problem with bitcoin though? We can't perceive if it's being manipulated or not. E: Actually that brings up another issue for me. Wouldn't that just be a run on the currency? So the last people to get out of manipu-coins are the ones stuck holding the bag?
Re: The Bitcoin Whales: 1,000 People Who Own 40 Percent of the Market
#199Earlier quoted context omitted.
>If that common medium is being manipulated then the market will perceive that as damage and route around it. Isn't that basically the problem with bitcoin though? We can't perceive if it's being manipulated or not. E: Actually that brings up another issue for me. Wouldn't that just be a run on the currency? So the last people to get out of manipu-coins are the ones stuck holding the bag?
The currency is still just a medium of exchange. If the value crashes and some are left "holding the bag" as you say, then those left holding currency could still exchange with one another. No system promises that its actors will behave morally. What we're talking about is whether or not you fundamentally believe that government can and should exert force on the market. Those of us who believe they should not don't s…
Of course not, but government allows us to reach outside the system (in some cases) and set the rules for the system. Those rules can be used to help encourage more moral behavior and discourage less moral behavior.
>Those of us who believe they should not don't see a perfect and moral market on the other side
Okay but you can see how this language:
>If that common medium is being manipulated then the market will perceive that as damage and route around it.
does begin to imply a "perfect" market right? If something is manipulated then we just route around it. That phrasing seems to hide that the real cost in "routing around" a currency is that a lot of people lose all their money.
>we just would prefer to exchange problems of force and authority with problems of interpersonal relationships.
This wording seems to put force/authority and interpersonal relationships on opposite sides of the spectrum but that's obviously not true. Interpersonal relationships are one of the primary methods of using force and authority.
Perhaps a more accurate representation of your views is that you would like force and authority to be only transmitted person to person?
Re: The Bitcoin Whales: 1,000 People Who Own 40 Percent of the Market
#200Earlier quoted context omitted.
Government-issued currencies usually come with legal tender laws and citizens are required to pay taxes using the government money. Since taxes are not voluntary, this creates built-in demand for the fiat money. The creators of alternative competitor-money are punished as well. The libertarian position is that human interactions should be voluntary, so the coercion problem is where libertarians find issue first. A si…
I'm sympathetic to the inflation argument, but it doesn't seem to match what actually happens. For example, Bitcoin inflated by about 20% in a 20-minute period yesterday. The theory doesn't seem to match the practice here.
So if a currency goes up in value, that's actually economic 'deflation', because the prices of goods go down.
Now - I don't agree with any of the commenters arguments at all, but the terms 'inflationary' and 'deflationary' are used in that context.
There are some that argue the inflation and deflation are not a function of the price of goods - rather - simply the amount of money in circulation and that's it. I think this is the Austrian position.