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The world's most toxic value system (2001)

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Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#191

Post by ghostbrainalpha »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #177

At last, a rational argument for the moral superiority of Northern European societies! That was about time! It's pitty this is such an old article, I'd love to hear the author's rationalist defense of the moral superiority of diverse historical phenomena originating in Northern Europe, like anthropogenic global warming, WWI and WWII, separately the Holocaust, Stalin and, well, why not? Colonialism. Yeah, it's a rheto…

"The White Man's Burden" is to Colonialism, as "The World's Most Toxic Value System" is to ___Now?_____

Fuck... I'm sure that's not right. I sucked at this part of the SAT's.

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#192

Post by ghostbrainalpha »

toomanyrichies wrote: post #54

This reminds me of a passage I read from "Hillbilly Elegy" by JD Vance, where he talks about growing up in the Scots-Irish parts of West Virginia, and the almost pathological devotion to family honor. One anecdote (the details of which I'm mis-remembering slightly) involves an incident he witnessed in a Walmart or Kmart or some such store, where a mother whose out-of-control kids were scolded by an employee for their…

That book should be the required reading for this article. I love how he talked about the effect of Honor culture even in elementary school fights, and how difficult it has been to detach himself from that culture as an individual.

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#193

Post by PhasmaFelis »

baybal2 wrote: post #136
PhasmaFelis wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand what you're trying to express here. You agree that all of the things the author describes do happen, and pretty much for the same reasons the author describes, but you...still think he's wrong, somehow? Possibly because you don't like him using the word "honor," even though he went to great lengths to not do that?

He picked word Thar, but even that semantic loading that he devised, reinvents the bicycle. He want to put that to "wage feud" as he puts is different from simple fight over social status, while it is, and later he effectively says that.

Most people don't kill over social status. If we're going to communicate about this effectively, we need to find a word that means "social status except you're willing to kill over it." Which he did. Is there a word you would have preferred?

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#194

Post by eric-hu »

ramy_d wrote: post #38
eric-hu wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Rape and genocide and embezzlement also exist for a reason, and make sense to people who think a certain way. > Something this author believes that most people (in our coastal bubbles) don't: that some cultures are better than others. I think you can ask people in coastal bubbles about the rape and genocide cultures of various wars and embezzlement subcultures of various corporations. My money is on them saying tho…

Actually i would argue the opposite. Not to the extent of genocide but the lid has really blown on Hollywood's sexual harassment problem (read: rape culture). Let's not forget Uber's contribution there and of course the whole gamer gate scandal which is still fresh in the minds of the people involved in the community. Racism, classism, and authoritarianism's roaring 2017 comeback. Then there's Madoff, Exon (classic)…

Oh but I didn't say our society's hands are clean. My money simply goes to the odds of what "cultures" most in ours might find reprehensible.

And as for those in our society who do those things? My money is on most people in the home turf saying that's not their culture, that these are bad eggs.

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#195

Post by majewsky »

tmnvix wrote: post #60
nradov wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty easy to objectively measure which cultures are better. In general we can just look at long-term trends in voluntary migration rates by country / state / region (or whatever geographic area aligns with a particular culture). Sure there will be some noise in the data based on natural disasters and legal restrictions but those revealed preferences give a good first approximation.

People often move not for cultural reasons, but because of resources. An example would be Nepalese migrant workers moving to Saudi Arabia - they aren't doing that for the culture.

Also, voluntary migration rates (the metric that grandparent proposes) are distorted by migration policies.

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#196

Post by majewsky »

wfo wrote: post #173
DonbunEf7 wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there any countries with slavery which are outperforming similarly-situated countries without slavery? AFAIK slavery is only useful in Civilization 4 (whip it! whip it good!) and IRL it is no substitute for citizenship.

The success of the United States economy was almost entirely built on slave labor. Dubai and Qatar, some of the most economically successful countries in their region, are essentially entirely built on slave labor. It is making a comeback in the US because of how efficient it is in the form of mass incarceration combined with prison labor. The inference 'economic success' -> 'morally good' is, well, horrifying. Slave…

> Dubai and Qatar, some of the most economically successful countries in their region, are essentially entirely built on slave labor.

Exactly. These massive oil reserves have nothing to do with it. /s

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#197

Post by majewsky »

kenning wrote: post #45
Nomentatus wrote: post #35

It's just not historically true that "northern European culture has been relatively free of the thar mentality." We weren't magically spared these traits. In fact few hundred years ago duels were the mainstay of the official justice system in England. These duels were, literally, trials. I wish I knew more about how we got away from all that.

Some old traditions like this are so bizarre, I can't even imagine why they were created in the first place. Dowry is also like this -- I always forget which side pays which, because the idea of someone paying for a marriage is so strange.

The family of the bride has to pay dowry, because she becomes part of the man's family after marriage and they have to feed her. Or so goes the logic, I guess. (Or maybe because women are so much less worth then men that you have to add a dowry to make the marriage a fair trade.)

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#198

Post by majewsky »

LiweiZ wrote: post #6

Off topic, the web site is truly content-centered and looks clean and clear with no unnecessary information. Font size for each level is very good, too. For me, that's how good design should look like.

Meh. Before I read this, I opened open up the devtools and added a

  html { line-height: 1.4 }
to make the lines less hilariously dense. Also, `width: 700px` etc. does not adapt to mobile viewports.

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#199

Post by Nomentatus »

usrusr wrote: post #131
Nomentatus wrote: post #15

Without a working and well-funded criminal justice system, "Don't with me or my clan EVER" may be the best you can do, alas. As mentioned in another comment, if you're living in a U.S. inner city where talking to the police is taboo, similar conditions can develop. "Irrationally" disproportionate responses to small problems ("display" in ape terms) may prevent worse problems and greater violence. It's not ideal, it's…

Optimization to a local maximum pitfall, it is very much acknowledged in the article that the systems criticised make sense to those inside.

But to the individual, it's not a local maximum; they are trapped in a first mover's dilemma (later called Nash Equilibrium), and everybody simultaneously moving to very different norms is statistically unlikely.

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#200

Post by flukus »

QAPereo wrote: post #139
Pyrhos wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Gender equality is still a big problem in Europe Men and women are equal under the law (in most or all European states) when it comes to labour. Gender inequality in Europe is largely caused by individual choices. This is best demonstrated by the fact that in poorer countries of eastern Europe, women are much more represented in STEM as it's a good way out of poverty, while richer countries (such as Scandinavian) wh…

Ah those famous “individual choices” which are perfectly spherical, and in a vacuum. /s

I think you missed the point, Scandinavian countries are closer to that perfect sphere in a vacuum, they are much more free of external pressures than those in poorer countries. They make their choices on what will make them happiest and not on some harsh economic realities.
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