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Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

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Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#191

Post by distances »

mantas wrote: post #146
criddell wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They get pressured to go to a 4 year school You're not kidding. My kids are in high school and the pressure on them to go to college is nuts. They push it so hard that it makes me wonder if there's some kind of reward for the teachers based on the number of kids that go on to college.

Very likely. In my country, schools are rated by % of kids getting into universities. Teachers are also punished for kids who give a try at non-mandatory exams, but fail. Those who wants to get it into university damn sure work hard. Meanwhile people who don't aim for university and take those exams for the lulz are likely to damage teacher's statistics.

You have statistics for teachers? That's just plain stupid to be honest.

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#192

Post by leetrout »

bpyne wrote: post #186
roseburg wrote: post #86

I would simplify it and say that learning trade skills is a better investment for most people than attending a 4-year college. Trade skills can be learned at a young age, right from home, where there is room and time to explore and enjoy the learning process. Why we wait until after high school to teach kids in-demand skills boggles my mind. All the pressure in the world arrives after high school. It's time to start…

Your comment reminded me of an essay Paul Graham wrote. (See the link below.) He argues that modern society has taken kids, isolated them from participating in greater society, and made school a "job" to them. The consequence is that teenagers feel out of step with society because they don't participate in it, the way that they did when apprenticeships were common. This observation supports the premise of the essay.…

That's interesting. I was a volunteer firefighter from ages 12-19 and while it's not for everyone (and some tasks were not for me) the overall experience during that time in my life taught me a lot of values that you don't get in sports / schooling... the value of a human life- and that is- that you would put yours on the line for theirs. Not to mention to see someone TRULY in need and being equipped to provide that assistance.

It also taught me that a LOT of people still behave in adulthood as they did in their adolescent years and they try to "smart-shame" those that have / persue "book smarts" since many of them work as skilled laborers and didn't care much about schooling / education.

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#193

Post by abrongersma »

I attended a 2 year vocational program for CIS in High School. It was heavily focused on passing the CCNA exam but I spent most of my time working running the class websites and learning the ins and outs of the LAMP stack. I had unlimited access to industry standard equipment and the freedom to break things without the risk of getting fired. It provided me with a solid foundation of networking and infrastructure fundamentals.

I passed on going to college due to getting an incredible co-op. I'm quite fortunate that my lack of a college degree has yet to limit my career. I give back by volunteering and providing co-op positions for the students of the program.

High School students are pushed to go straight to college and get a degree even when they're not 100% sure what they enjoy doing. They're not often provided with information about alternatives like attending a vocational program.

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#194

Post by Symbiote »

skybrian wrote: post #188
dionidium wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's amazing to me is that there are people who don't feel like they're capable of changing their own doorknob. (I get it; there are some people who would rather just pay, but surely some of these people just don't feel like they could manage this task. That's wild.)

One obvious market is elderly folks who aren't getting around well anymore.

I think the more likely market is those elderly folks' children, who'd rather pay on Amazon than take the time to visit their parents.

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#195

Post by conductr »

abstractbeliefs wrote: post #184
roel_v wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was just a snippy remark hinting at the many people in this thread saying how great trade skills are, yet very few of them actually do a job like that. I mean, commenters here mention 'the social stigma' and how unfair it is - but being a plumber is just a, well, shit job. Construction work isn't fun, when it's your job, and you're not the boss. There's a reason all those middle and lower middle class parents tell…

Half the issue is that all these people have done exactly that: we now have a glut of college educated young people, with supply outstripping demand, while the opposite is the case in the trades. The salaries each can command reflects this. The tradesmen telling their children to go to uni do so based on their experience in a generation where there were far more tradesmen, with poorer salaries, and poorer worker prot…

> it's simply the case that half of jobs do not require a degree

The problem I see in the US is that because of the glut of degrees, jobs that should not require a degree do require a degree. The employers are making things worse when they require degrees for menial jobs.

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#196

Post by toasterlovin »

AstralStorm wrote: post #73
toasterlovin wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have seen it argued that the reason for this is that employers are prohibited from using intelligence tests to evaluate job applicants, so they use years of education as a proxy for intelligence.

Which it is not. Mostly it is a proxy for being able to deal with terrible bureaucracies (maybe useful?) and having enough money to live through it. (classist)

In some ways it is probably a better way to evaluate somebody’s fitness for the working world, since it requires some degree of intelligence and the ability to trudge through crap you don’t like. But it is an awfully expensive way to evaluate people.

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#197

Post by notfromhere »

aphextron wrote: post #14
bruceb wrote: post #2

Remove the social stigma of not going to college. Hardly any tv shows that show young non college grads as positive.

>Remove the social stigma of not going to college. Hardly any tv shows that show young non college grads as positive. Or just make college useful and accessible. Give people the option of a European style undergrad where there is no liberal arts breadth, only technical courses. If we had accredited colleges doing 3 year bachelor degrees in STEM, the system would be much more efficient.

That works in Europe because k-12 is more rigorous and you have to test into university. Lots of STEM majors are terrible at reasoning and writing, so I don't think skipping the liberal arts section would be helpful.

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#198

Post by crispyambulance »

Trade school is a great thing for the right number of motivated and capable students.

The problem is that the market can only take so many plumbers, electricians and tin-knockers before their pay falls off a cliff. I expect that this would occur long before the wage gap is actually closed. Moreover many trades are still unionized and resistant to new entrants.

I think that schools should focus more on getting the basics right. Most of us here on HN have enjoyed a priviledged journey through good to elite schooling. The sad reality is that in large swathes of the country high school education has become a shit-show with reprecussions that will last decades.

While it is good to continue to offer votech programs, I think that schools should just make literacy a priority. If you think that's 'aiming low' you haven't seen what goes on in schools today.

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#199

Post by criddell »

distances wrote: post #191
mantas wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very likely. In my country, schools are rated by % of kids getting into universities. Teachers are also punished for kids who give a try at non-mandatory exams, but fail. Those who wants to get it into university damn sure work hard. Meanwhile people who don't aim for university and take those exams for the lulz are likely to damage teacher's statistics.

You have statistics for teachers ? That's just plain stupid to be honest.

That depends on what it is they are measuring and what they use those results for.

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#200

Post by logicalmind »

malbs wrote: post #173

I wish I'd taken my step-dad up on his offer and done an chippy apprenticeship when I was 17. Instead I flailed around, did some c programming, some web development, never went to uni. I even managed to get myself that first job as a software dev, slowly trading upwards, but it always worked against me that I was a high school drop out and had no degree. Later in life, I looked upon the lack of degree as an asset, I…

I come from a blue collar family. I was the first person in my family to graduate college. But that wasn't my plan initially. During summers in high school I worked installing HVAC systems. After graduating high school I started a plumbing apprenticeship. It was what I discovered during that apprenticeship that made me decide to go to college instead (during college I had a job doing carpentry as well).

I'm not saying all people in the trades are this way, but you find a lot of people who are alcoholics. It often does not impact their job, but people drinking a case of beer a day is not uncommon. If you can avoid drinking, the next problem is the damage you do to your body on the job. You are often lifting heavy things. You will be using dangerous power tools often. Any little loss of focus will lead to serious injury or worse. And even if you avoid that, there is only so much your body can take. Many people need surgeries or become crippled as they age.

Many of the people I once worked with have died from alcoholism, smoking, or related cancers. My own father is now forcefully retired due to back and knee issues. He can barely walk. He meets up monthly with the other people he worked with, who are now retired, and it is not a pretty site. I personally don't know anyone in this line of work who is happily retired and living the dream, so to speak.

The trades are very much about physical work and physical labor. Not everyone can take that kind of work for a lifetime.

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